Kissena Forum Archive

Cyclocross!

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Still kinda following the disc vs. cantilevers bit. Powers and about 98.5% of the male field were on Cantis over the weekend:
image

Also found this review of Helen Wyman's Kona bike, she uses and states that loves discs.

Wyman switches between vented and solid rotors depending on the course conditions

"We found that the braking performance is really greatly increased, and with the solid rotor there's almost no brake [pad] wear in a muddy race," he said. "It's unbelievable how it changes the longevity of your brake pads."

Despite what he sees as a huge performance advantage, Stefan Wyman admits that there's still little sign of a sea change when it comes to the European arena.

"In America, you have a lot of individuals [single-person teams], but the market in Europe, in terms of the racers, is driven by a few big, dominant teams," he said. "You're dealing with people that have been setting up 'cross bikes for 25 years and it's a big change. In Belgium, there's a big feeling that 'cross is traditional and it should be this, and it should be that. It's going to take a big change in attitude."

"There's also the misconception that there's a weight penalty with discs. This bike is 6.97kg [15.37lb] and that's not a weight penalty. It's less than 200g over the weight limit. There's absolutely no reason not to change over, apart from a lack of knowledge of how it works and the traditional elements of it, really."


image

http://www.bikeradar.com/road/gear/article/pro-bike-helen-wymans-kona-super-jake-43044/?CPN=RSS&SOURCE=BRROADHOME

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The thing is when I see Powers, Nys, and Compton choose cantis makes me think there are good reasons other than tradition. It is interesting and fun to follow.
Unless you go thru axle a disk can pull the front wheel out or loose from the front qr.

Also, not all trainers will fit they axle bikes (kickr)


Hey Cross fans, watching the Adam Myerson interview from Bay State, got me thinking. If you are inclined, I've set up a single question poll to satisfy my curiosity.
eloy said:
Still kinda following the disc vs. cantilevers bit. Powers and about 98.5% of the male field were on Cantis over the weekend:

The thing is when I see Powers, Nys, and Comption choose cantis can't but think there's are good reasons other than tradition. It is interesting and fun to follow.
I think you're right.

I feel compelled to add that the article makes me even more skeptical of discs for most crossers

This bit is in there: "Wyman keeps two different pad compounds and rotor shapes on hand to suit the course conditions, too. In particular, muddy races call for rotors with no cutouts on the brake track."

So, not only do we need a few sets of wheels with different tire treads glued on, but now we'll need to keep at least two sets of rotors and several sets of pads to get the braking right?

And they bring up pad wear as an issue when Helen is getting a freshly cleaned bike every lap on a muddy course?  What about for those of us who have one bike?

And to add fuel to the fire, he brings up the weight issue when Helen is running some of the lightest, most expensive components available.  Her bike is 200g over the minimum when she can exploit every light part found.  With canti's her bike would probably be right at the weight limit--lighter wheels (fewer front spokes, lighter hubs), lighter brakes.  200g might not be insignificant when you have to run with a bike for a minute a lap.


Last year, or maybe the year before, I got into a twitter "fight" with Jeremy Powers about discs. He talked about the hole pad wear issue, and if you got the right rotors (which conveniently do not come with stock set ups), then all was okay.

It seems a number of Edwin's athletes have recently been racing their Aloominators with cantis lately. LVG in particular. I'm not sure what happened, but Bill was furious at his FTB at Providence...I think he's been racing the Aloominator since. But honestly, I haven't been "tracking" him since. And the fury at Providence...I guess could have been a lot of things.
I think the debate between cantis and dics is a moot point. 

If you're getting a new cx bike, most bikes are disc brake only anyway. In the end, I'm going to end up buying a Giant (thanks sponsor) TCX SLR with disc brakes because, sponsor or not, that's pretty much the only thing available to me, even though I would prefer cantis.

Last year, or maybe the year before, I got into a twitter "fight" with Jeremy Powers about discs. He talked about the hole pad wear issue, and if you got the right rotors (which conveniently do not come with stock set ups), then all was okay.

It seems a number of Edwin's athletes have recently been racing their Aloominators with cantis lately. LVG in particular. I'm not sure what happened, but Bill was furious at his FTB at Providence...I think he's been racing the Aloominator since. But honestly, I haven't been "tracking" him since. And the fury at Providence...I guess could have been a lot of things.
Don't know if Bill ever had a disc-brake bike.  Same goes for LVG.  Bill is on the same components he's had for years, and his bikes match completely.  For a working elite crosser, his gear strikes me as safe, practical choices.

Disc pads wearing out before a rider finishes a race can be a real issue for riders with a single bike in a wet conditions. Sourcing special, hard-to-find rotors doesn't strike me as a real solution for most people.

I think the debate between cantis and dics is a moot point. 

If you're getting a new cx bike, most bikes are disc brake only anyway. In the end, I'm going to end up buying a Giant (thanks sponsor) TCX SLR with disc brakes because, sponsor or not, that's pretty much the only thing available to me, even though I would prefer cantis.
Of course this is mostly true. And seems to be part of what is going on. Riders have access to one or the other so they ride that.

But it isn't a moot discussion. If discs were a significant advantage top riders would all be on them. I find it fun to follow. 

Here's a photo of Sabrina Stultiens, taken by Ashley Lewis last Saturday at the World Cup. Notice the Giant TCX with Cantis.

image
To counter my own post, ala Bertucco.

Stultiens might be riding a 2013 frame. Mariane Vos won the world championship on a Giant w discs. (photo by Balint Hamvas) --- So who knows. Still fun.

 image
I've been enjoying the Euro races at Matties — or <3 www.cyclingfans.com — the best part is the low key restrained sighing from the Dutch commentators when Sven gets his chain stuck... seems obvious that heavy mud = ditch the discs. If you consider all the iterations on wheels and the duplication they need with one bike, having to double your equipment and maintenance is a headache.image

I got some feedback from Jeremy Powers about his choice of cantis in Europe. Which seems a little fishy to me honestly, but I don't have the firepower/desire to argue. Because as Philip recently pointed out, its still mostly a moot point for us.

(Frankly, I've sort of given up the dream of a sweet canti-ed ride, and now am annoyed that I will have to have a bike with some sort of annoying, complicated/expensive tool requiring "press fit" bottom bracket system. This after I, ME, maybe the world's worst home mechanic, successfully swapped out my older "external bearing" style shimano BB with little grief. Something I'd be happy to take on every season as part of routine maintenance.)

Anyway, I digress, Jeremy answered my questions about his Euro canti set up.

But he says it came down to a supply/order issue.

Jeremy Powers @JeremyPowers 7h7 hours ago

@VC95 @KissenaCycling my reason was timing of equipment ordering back in March. We didn't know if disc would be 100% available ...

@VC95 @KissenaCycling so we had to split the order and decided to use disc in USA & canti in euro, I miss the discs power in europe

@VC95 @KissenaCycling each system suits each course differently, racing in the USA disc is always a good choice - we have much faster tracks

Other tweets from him on the subject of cadence, reveal possibly another real reason why he's still on cantis. Saying that he routinely needs to be able to pedal at less than 50rpm. And then you know, lighter = better magnified.

@jverheul @CXHairs @spragg247 to chime in, JV is correct: In the USA you don't need <50 rpm, maybe ever. In Europe you need it every wknd



Here's where myself and Todd McLoughlin are going this weekend. Little something for everyone on this course. Runners will love the long beach. Singletrack MTB-ers there are plenty of roots and descents to bomb. Jules, you could show off those stair hopping skills with two large, but rideable, for a few, logs.

Seriously though folks, this is an awesome race. Next year I will get Jeff White to come to it, then he will tell you the TRUTH, and then you will go.

http://dirtwire.tv/2013/12/nbx-gran-prix-of-cross-day-two-elite-mens-and-womens-highlights/

Not really looking forward to the weather. I personally prefer the sweltering temps of Nittany and other this year, but I the back is getting better and I actually got in two good workouts this week.

Also, although Peter is adamant that you "don't eat donuts in a cyclocross race, that's silly." I will be spending much time stuffing my face with glazed confections from this place:

https://www.facebook.com/AlliesDonuts
Figured that could be the reason. Powers has a completely different set of bikes in Europe. Which fits traveling only to the world cups, carrying two or even just one bike each time is annoying and super expensive.

Read between the lines: cantis are easier to maintain, we can easily find parts in Europe.

I've learned that while they are mostly honest, to always take pro's equipment recommendations with a grain of salt. The gig is literally to represent and sell their sponsors.

Ahem./
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BtDrZw8xiCQ
Love that Marc is in the background jawjacking.
I love the guest appearance by Penny in the background.
I will post an real race report later but I had an excellent race today out at the abandoned asylum on Long Island.  Saw lots of Kissenas and suffered so much mud.  I feel like this was the race where I finally started to get it.  No idea how I finished, but I think I'm starting to understand how it works.  Can't wait for next season.

Edit: Hit a major curb, enough to make my handlebars pivot forward, and my tubeless tire didn't even burp!  Or if they did it wasn't enough to notice.  Very surprised.  No tubulars for this guy.  Anyone running clinchers should convert to tubeless ASAP.  Just make sure you get the right rim.  Don't try to convert some old Open Pro rim you have lying around..
The asylum race was good fun. As Brendan said, there was a nice KCC turnout. I've posted a pic by David Sanossian's daughter although Keith should have a pro photo to share.

The course is mostly a power course. Not very technical with the exception of a couple of off camber turns, but that all changed in the middle of our race as the he light rain turned into a downpour and the wet grass turned into real CX mud. Finally.

I raced the masters field with Jim, Eloy, David, mark Taylor and Jim friend John. (Quick note about John who rides unattached: he has bought so many one day licenses this season that it cost him more than a year license. I think he has caught the bug. Time for an annual license my friend). Anyway, we had 25-30 in the field and after the first off camber turns the masters with 250 crossresults points who has been regularly placing in masters races all season ride away from the rest of us.

I chased after him building distance into the chasers behind. There had been talk with the promoter at the start that it would most likely be 3 laps and a 35 minute race. As I came in for the third lap in second place I slowed up and coasted asking the officials of it was over. They called out three more laps. I wondered if they were joking. I picked up the pace and glaced at my computer and realized that we had been only racing 20 minutes. So back to work. I kept the pace up but was unable to close on the leader. He kept putting more distance into me but I seemed to have a good lead on third place.

As I came up the the start-finish I heard a bell and thought that maybe they decided to have one more lap but the officials were displaying 2 to go. I am easily confused when anaerobic for 30+ minutes.

By now the rain was torrential and I was passing lapped riders left and right. The leader had won by a significant margin but I was glad to say that I came in with at least a minute or more on third. I was psyched to get second and for all the support out there.

I'd love to see them make this a more technically difficult course, but it was good as is.
Pictures, so it did happen. Brendan looked strong out there.

https://m.facebook.com/ToneB11/albums/10205526202653580/?ref=bookmark

https://m.facebook.com/laichungleung/albums/10153545715300200/?ref=bookmark
I think the reason we did 6 was because they cut some stuff out of the course that they thought might be problematic given the conditions. Nice job Patrick....for me, the best part of the day was the KCC turnout. That was awesome. I split right after due to the downpour, so I did not get my result, guessing top 10. But it really doesn't matter. It was a great way to put the season to bed.

Pretty good day for me at NBX. I love this course, and while I'm now spoiled by the fact that Myles proved that it is possible to have two days of racing with no infuriating traffic jamming holeshot, there is much greatness about this course. For me. At least.

Long beach run, followed up by a long pavement stretch, interrupted by a short steep climb, dive back down onto pavement, run up stairs and back in the woods. Guys like JP who have ridden with me countless times will no doubt recognize why I'm so fond of this course.

I'm a better than average runner (for a cyclist), and while everyone is pretty slow through deep unrideable sand, I managed to get to the end of the 150 meter beach run fresher and ready to rocket across the pavement, while other guys were using the pavement as rest. I managed to dispatch of more than a few riders in this fashion.

On another particular "chicany" right/left puddle-filled pavement stretch I was in full on crit racing mode. Such a pleasure to see that guys who were glued to my wheel on the dirt, were long gone by the second series of turns.

And the roots, remember the roots. Every year, this course changes a little bit, but much of it stays the same. The final rooty, twisty-turnies through a wooded stretch was virtually identical to last year. And after watching Mike Garrigan practice it over and over last year, I did the same, and low-and-behold, muscle memory, full intact, I nailed this section even though I only pre-rode it once.

Other areas where I was pleasantly reminded that I am not terrible at were the multiple on and off bits. Whether running up stairs, over 40 cm barriers, or two ginormous logs, I have gradually becoming free of various leg and back ailments which have dominated my life since Marty, I was able to clear all and remount with the kind of speed that kept most chasers from gaining on me there.

It still takes me way too long to walk like a normal 41 year old after I've been sitting anywhere for more than 10 minutes, but hey, at least I can put on pants standing up again. #smallpleasures

Unfortunately, this is cross, and for all that goes your way, a few things are bound to bite you in the ass. In this case, one particular corner caught me out on 2 different laps. Once I found myself well on the other side of the course tape, and another that same tape, restrung, took hold of my handlebars with such force that I was forced to put a foot down. And while under pressure from a chaser, the short muddy ride-up I managed to botch twice allowing him to close the gap.

The big mistakes, combined with the usual bobbles and imperfect lines and I founds myself sprinting in the end for what turned out to be 28th out of 36th place. Fortunately for me, this back of the pack finish was in a pretty stacked field, and so I actually earned some SUHWEET (for me) crossresults points.

Post race notes:
  • With 1-1/2 laps to go, I was riding with a broken spoke. The massive wheel wobble kept me more cautious than I would have like. No neutral wheels at this race, but the sponsoring shop was nearby and hooked me up with a "while-you-wait" new spoke and wheel truing even though I strolled into their shop 35 minutes before they were about to close. I wasn't the only one, their wrench had quite a few cross bikes on the stands!
  • It was raining and muddy. But not cold and no frozen ground, and limited off-cambers, so kind of a non-factor.
  • In the Elite women's races, BrittLee took what looked to be a less than ideal start and worked her way back up to 11th place. Lots of grit and determination in that face. Strong legs. Better start and she would have been racing for about 6th place. No question.
  • Mike Garrigan was back at the front of the action this week. Taking the hole shot and holding top 5 for the early laps. Faded to about 13th at his worst, then cranked back to take the final UCI point on tap with a 10th place sprint. He was on FTB with discs.
  • Tried to bond with Bill Eliston at the breakfast bar this morning over hotel scrambled eggs and sausage patties. "Dude, we totally have the same haircut now!" He wasn't impressed. (jk)
Brendan Rigby said:

I feel like this was the race where I finally started to get it.  No idea how I finished, but I think I'm starting to understand how it works.  Can't wait for next season.
Uhm, if you left the race without knowing where you finished, then you clearly are JUST starting to understand...

#muchtolearnyoungjedi #winkyface
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At the start of the 45+ race the promoter said "It's wet. The papers are kind of wet. You will probably know if you win but don't expect results today."

It was a fun race. Super low key event. I don't think I've ever seen a course with less course tape. A lot of one sided taping where it was the course tape on one side and some trees on the other. But it was pretty obvious at all times where to go. I think the promoter could have used some of the natural features to make a more challenging course but with the rainy conditions it turned out fine

Despite having only ridden my commuter since Supercross, I felt pretty good and got in three solid warm up laps. Everything was damp when when we started but about half way through it started to pour. The course started to get really sloppy in parts. Lots of full gas flying through mud and slipping around corners.

David and I basically chased each other all day. Patrick was long gone in front of us. Eloy was looking good at the start but had a couple first lap mishaps that sent him pretty far back. David and I had two otherriders  (one unattached rider and Paul from Kruis) with us most of the race so the competition was fierce. Then about 4 laps in I could see Eloy coming up from behind and with about a lap and a half to go he passed both David and I. In the end the three of us finished in a row with Eloy staying ahead of us and David getting the best of me over the final set of barriers. I think we were 5,6,7. One of the funnest races this year.

Kayt looked super strong out there and raced for a long time. Pretty sure the women raced for about 55 minutes. We had to jet back to Brooklyn just as the main race was starting but it looked like Brendan was holding strong in the top 10 as they went by after the first lap.


Brendan - did you beat the Junior you were racing with the first few laps? Perry has good handling skills and is the NJ Junior champ. His dad told me he is going to Nationals in Austin in January. Keeping up with him is an accomplishment i itself.


I raced the Asylum today. They revered the course from yesterday and there were a several peanut butter mud sections. Some were long and wide. Colder and windier than yesterday, but the lack of rain made it less epic... 

Nonetheless I took the win in the Masters race establishing a couple of minute gap on the second place finisher (Wayne) who had taken third yesterday. A Krebs (or was it Karl Hart) guy came in a solid third. The guy who crushed the field yesterday was not there and there were only about 15 riders, but I felt strong and had figured out the fastest lines during the pre-ride.

Saw Todd and Andre warming up for the open race later on. I took a pic of yesterday's results but realized that I should have looked at the open results for Brendan and Phil. Sorry guys.

In summary from Saturday:

I took 2nd and Eloy, David and Jim came in 7, 8, & 9th. Jim's friend John came in 13th and Mark came in 18th. Good work guys.
The best thing about yesterday's race was the fact that were four.....count 'em, four Kissenas in the top ten. That would have been pretty to see from the finish line. Speaking for myself, it capped off my best season ever with three top ten finishes. I go into winter feeling like I did what I wanted to do. Well done boys! Congrats Patrick on today's win!
Congrats! Patrick!! 
Thanks for confirming the results too. Saturday was so fun.
Nice work Patrick!
Thanks guys.

I wasn't able to stay for the open race but I have it on good authority that Todd took second today. 

Car troubles kept him from NBX. Way to go Todd
WTG (way to go!!!! - my daughter is teaching me how to text). Well, done Todd!