Dec 16, 2014 at 04:55 PM
Yeah…..The way Kissena typically goes about its computrainer sessions i.e. doing virtual races in December, January and February, doesn't really fit in with a periodization based training plan
Winter Computrainer Rides
Dec 16, 2014 at 05:06 PM
Just so everyone knows, TriBy3 owner Erik, who runs the classes, is willing to coach us through more specific training sessions if we so choose.
I use CompuTrainer for several things:
- Social diversion. It's fun to ride with teammates. It's fun to compete with teammates. It's fun to get my ass whipped by teammates. It's fun to listen to music.
- It is an anchor of my week's training over the winter months. As Bruce mentioned, I sit in quite a bit, and go take pulls on the front when I start to get too comfortable. I'll respond to everyone else's attacks, then toward the end, I'll make some moves of my own. I spend time in a wide variety of training zones, and so certainly achieve meaningful training effect from the hourlong sessions.
- I learn a lot. About my teammates, about tactics, about my fitness. About how to tie an effective towel headdress.
- It is motivational. These sessions motivate me to train consistently and well. Everyone can see how you're riding, so there's no hiding it if you're not training well.
- It is flexible. If I'm not feeling a high-intensity workout, I'll go off the back and ride my own pace.
All that said, I am perfectly willing to come up with a program that works in more structured, non-drafting interval sessions if that is what people are interested in. Erik is more than happy to help us do that. The key thing for me is to do what people are interested in participating in. So please, everyone who is considering doing this in January, chime in!
Dec 16, 2014 at 05:51 PM
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Dec 16, 2014 at 06:52 PM
Bruce et al,
I'm not going to these any time soon. Not because they're too hard nor because they don't fit into my periodization schedule, but because the timing doesn't work for me.
There's nothing inherently wrong with going out to knock each other senseless during these sessions over the winter. It might not be terribly specific, but it can be social, fun, and stress your body in a positive way. Take this as the ride where you bury yourself each week and you'll certainly get a fitness boost out of it. Possibly a great boost. And, as you're not doing the same thing all year, having this as your weekly high-intensity workout 3-12 times over the course of 52 weeks is not much.
The question, in my mind, is how to make it so that more people are getting more out of it. Pedaling demoralized is no fun.
The first thing is there should be a general agreement with the participants of said session want. You should be able to make it a group ride if people would like that. Whitey's comments about sitting in at times, forcing the pace at times is something that others can emulate, certainly. Racing and training can be about being smart with your efforts and paying attention in that way can be both good for your body and your brain.
One of the big things I wonder if it could help is messing with individual's weight values. Since w/kg can be a big difference, can someone's vitual weight be adjusted up or down so that people are more equally matched.
Another is since you're all together do you talk during the session to get eveyone in a virtual paceline, that sort of thing?
Dec 16, 2014 at 07:15 PM
Agree with JP, last year in Jan and Feb Vlad and I often went "double down"; 2 x 1hr sessions of "racing" around and over threshold (I also rode to and from the UWS when conditions were right). Apart from that I only usually rode 1 GWB ride in the weekend. We both saw a big return on those sessions during the season. My sense is we aren't riding enough for it to create a burn-out scenario, but yeah I agree it's not what current Dr Science would suggest you do.
For me the bigger win is it's social and fun, you are learning grit and determination to suffer for an hour and a relative sense of you and your teammates strengths. That said, I know that getting dropped on the first hill and riding 45 minutes solo is plain demoralizing... but also awesome character building stuff too!
I like JP's idea of twerking the system, you would lose your real metrics but still have a sense from week to week. Just put in weight 1 pound.
Dec 16, 2014 at 08:05 PM
TWERKING THE SYSTEM
Dec 16, 2014 at 08:20 PM
To quote Erik from an old email:
We do Functional Threshold Power Tests in a group setting to generate power zones but we're also capable of doing individual FTP and Blood Lactate Tests to generate heart-rate and power training zones. Obviously thats only is useful if a rider is training with power and/or heart-rate.
In terms of the 'coached' sessions, it's basically me designing a specific workout, leading athletes through that workout and giving feedback on any number of things (and motivating). Sessions with our athletes usually consist of a series of intervals at different power zones. I program a workout lasting about 90" and athletes might be focusing on 2" hard efforts one day, and more endurance zones the next. The software lets me set each individual riders' Threshold and each trainer adjusts for that rider.
Dec 16, 2014 at 09:28 PM
Good thoughts so far, everyone, thanks. I'm more inclined, really, to ride a course and back off if I need or want to, and watch others race, than do individual workouts in a group. That strikes me like physical therapy, where I don't need the encouragement or help with sitting on a trainer and riding, since I already know how to do that. It's good to know it's an option, though.
Perhaps, for me, it's changing my attitude, as others have mentioned, to seeing it as fun, meaning it's the camaraderie that's good, as well as the workout, not the hard numbers themselves. I got in 194 miles last week, so my riding isn't lacking, but the CT rides are beyond the regular riding I'm doing.
We don't talk much, because we're out of breath or watching intently who's in the lead or making an attack. That's fun itself, at the expense of conversation, but something I really do enjoy, as paying attention in a race can be the difference in getting into a break or not.
Gwynna, I never even thought about it but it would be good if they had inexpensive rentals with bikes in all sizes. Having ridden to the place while it was snowing last week, I would have preferred renting a bike for a couple of bucks. Renting a custom high-end Guru? Maybe next time.
I think twerking classes may be in the space next door.
Dec 16, 2014 at 09:32 PM
re: renting a bike for a trainer session.
That problem has been solved. It's called spinning. Equinox and Soul Cycle are the leaders in NYC.
Dec 16, 2014 at 09:39 PM
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Dec 16, 2014 at 10:24 PM
Wump's point about it being fun is key - if it isn't it'll put a nail in the coffin of your training.
Bruce; the short answer is "it depends." In the absence of a very structured plan some free form hammering isn't really a bad thing.
Bruce; the short answer is "it depends." In the absence of a very structured plan some free form hammering isn't really a bad thing.
In the past we've used the HULK TEAM SMASH as a social event but also - and I think more importantly - a way to drop all the artifice of in-race poker-faces and show one another what we've got and how we like to race. These are great opportunities to learn hard lessons, and get to know your teammates foibles.
Computrainer taught me that Norm (gone but never forgotton) was a pain-eating TT machine and that Ryan's power-to-weight was a weapon that commanded respect.
My feeling is that you have all week to do 5x5 minutes at 95% of threshold with 3 minutes rest between each; use your (our) time together as a virtual group-ride where you can learn one another's strengths and weaknesses. An obvious example Bruce is that you need to work on tactics if you want to "win" the group ride.
I think it would be best if you guys could race courses with varied terrain; hill at the beginning, hill in the middle, hill at the end and learn (roughly) how much time one can lose in different scenarios and what it "costs" to get it back.
I'm looking forward to joining folks in the new year.
Dec 16, 2014 at 10:25 PM
From what I can gather these are our basic options. Feel free to add.
a) All out, tear your legs off war. Riders will get dropped and have to build their mental strength in lone suffering or form smaller groups and race against each other (traditional KCC)
b) All out, tear your legs off war. Game the system so that slower riders can keep up with faster riders. Everyone still suffers from a hard workout.
c) Teamwork and tempo: Fast riders will set tempo on flats, slower riders draft. Slower riders will move to the front on hills, allowing them to set the group tempo. Game the system to compensate for major fitness disparities. Prevents people from overcooking and going over threshold.
d) Structured workouts: Erik will lead a structured group session and machine resistance will be tailored to individual rider's abilities (is this possible?). This also prevents people from going too hard allowing for tempo workouts, not threshold and above.
a) All out, tear your legs off war. Riders will get dropped and have to build their mental strength in lone suffering or form smaller groups and race against each other (traditional KCC)
b) All out, tear your legs off war. Game the system so that slower riders can keep up with faster riders. Everyone still suffers from a hard workout.
c) Teamwork and tempo: Fast riders will set tempo on flats, slower riders draft. Slower riders will move to the front on hills, allowing them to set the group tempo. Game the system to compensate for major fitness disparities. Prevents people from overcooking and going over threshold.
d) Structured workouts: Erik will lead a structured group session and machine resistance will be tailored to individual rider's abilities (is this possible?). This also prevents people from going too hard allowing for tempo workouts, not threshold and above.
Dec 16, 2014 at 10:42 PM
I'm with Jules in that I have all week to ride tempo on my trainer. For me, the fun of these sessions is to go hard. There were times last week where my HR got super high. If forced me to back off and see how much time I could lose by easing up to still keep up. Getting dropped sucks for sure -- it happened to me the first session of the month. But -- and hopefully this doesn't come off too harsh -- getting dropped is a fact of racing. It can be demoralizing. For me, the worst of it is if I'm off the back and there's someone still cheering for me. But it also takes *something* to keep you spinning and not just call it a race and quit, and that mental strength is something you have to build just like your base. For me, these sessions are the perfect place to try an attack, overcook your legs, get dropped, and then try like hell to catch back up when you know chances are slim. Better now than in May.
On Tue Dec 16 2014 at 5:25:15 PM David Yang <
On Tue Dec 16 2014 at 5:25:15 PM David Yang <
Dec 16, 2014 at 10:50 PM
If you have a coach, and you trust that coach, then disregarding your training plan is not a great thing. I've done it selectively, and usually have a good excuse as to why. If these sessions are fun and motivational for you, then you and your coach should find a way to incorporate them into your training plan. Just like other group rides.
Dec 17, 2014 at 12:21 AM
A good coach should be able to figure out how to adjust your training for your wants as much as your needs. That's why you're paying them.Marc Bertucco said:If these sessions are fun and motivational for you, then you and your coach should find a way to incorporate them into your training plan. Just like other group rides.
Dec 17, 2014 at 03:24 AM
Indeed. I think the phrase mine uses is "spirited group ride" but then again, he's polite.mugwump said:A good coach should be able to figure out how to adjust your training for your wants as much as your needs. That's why you're paying them.Marc Bertucco said:If these sessions are fun and motivational for you, then you and your coach should find a way to incorporate them into your training plan. Just like other group rides.
Dec 17, 2014 at 03:34 AM
Who's going tomorrow? I'm signed up
Dec 17, 2014 at 03:37 AM
I'd like to chime in and say that, if you want to improve, riding the bike is supposed to be hard.
Time off the bike is important, especially when you race a lot or overtrain, but a few weeks should do it. When you get back into it, expect it to be hard work. The computrainer is not the training ride and it's not the race, but that doesn't matter as much as what you're getting out of it. Each venue will have it's nuance, but in each case you get out what you put in.
There's no crying in baseball... and there's no not sucking in bike racing.
What I'm saying is ride hard. Be smart, but ABC (Always Be Closing Crushing). Suck it up, figure it out, find a way to make it enjoyable and then you're onto something.
Why I do it? Camaraderie mainly. Also, it's hard for me too.
Dec 17, 2014 at 03:19 PM
This reminds me of the following joke:
Dec 17, 2014 at 06:12 PM
In Malcolmson's example, and this may have gone un-noticed, but he was riding twice a week only. 1 hulk smash indoor session, and 1 group ride on the weekend. That's a fair amount of recovery time in there.JohnMalcolmson said:Agree with JP, last year in Jan and Feb Vlad and I often went "double down"; 2 x 1hr sessions of "racing" around and over threshold (I also rode to and from the UWS when conditions were right). Apart from that I only usually rode 1 GWB ride in the weekend. We both saw a big return on those sessions during the season. My sense is we aren't riding enough for it to create a burn-out scenario, but yeah I agree it's not what current Dr Science would suggest you do.
And he's a guy who has been riding/racing/training a long time. He's got miles of muscle memory in his legs that many of you don't. Most of you won't be able to pull off a twice a week training program. And those of you who are tempo-ing and/or hulk smashing 6 days a week?
Please make sure that you are building a good foundation this winter, give yourself active recovery days, all so that your top-end efforts, come race season, are stronger and last longer.
Also, please consider paying attention to RPMs when training. You should be doing at least one workout a week that focuses on intervals at varying RPMs. You need to be efficient at all different cadence ranges.
Dec 17, 2014 at 10:15 PM
Remember, all, show up by 7:20 so you can get set up and the session can start on time.
Dec 18, 2014 at 12:04 AM
Was it secretly canceled? I'm outside, lights are off and no one answering
Dec 18, 2014 at 12:39 PM
We had a good crew with Brendan, Sean, Ingrid, David and Adam. I read through all of the comments above and asked Erik to drop my weight. He had me at 195 and put it to 145. That made a huge difference. My average HR was 159 for the hour, instead of 180, though my cadence was way down because he put us on a seemingly easy course that was basically a solid hill requiring a ladder to get up.
Because the spinning was much easier for me, I had a solid workout; it was still hard and I sweated down to almost 145, but there was a new, crucial element added: I was left wanting to go harder.
Instead of throwing myself at the whole damned thing and missing a recovery ride the next day due to exhaustion, I got off the bike feeling hungry for more, and that's what I'm going for in December. And I got out for a light ride this morning.
Erik suggested everyone go to 130 so it would be an even field, which was an interesting idea, too. We didn't and I'd be curious to see what would happen. But I'm glad to know I can move my weight around, depending on the type of workout I want to do, and still sit in with the crew on a race course.
We called it before finishing the course because it was getting late.
Everyone else, at their weight, had great numbers. Brendan crushed the course, as I anticipated he would, Sean, his first time on Computrainer, had a solid workout, as did Ingrid who pounds the pedals, Adam's watts were really good (they get higher each session, you're getting in shape, dude!), and David's a machine on the bike, as always.
Great to see everyone last night, and thanks for not being pissed that I cheated. And thanks to everyone's comments above.
Erik said he's got an open, coaching trainer session this Tuesday morning at 6am, if anyone's interested in going.
Dec 18, 2014 at 01:04 PM
Interesting about the weight drop. I think perhaps for those struggling to drop some lbs then it might be useful reinforcement to do a similar thing on the computrainer. This way you can "feel" and see how it is to ride at your goal weight. Obviously, 145 for someone's Bruce's height is insane. And I don't want to encourage any disordered eating here. But I can tell you for my own weight loss struggles, it really helped to have the positive reinforcement of racing at a lower weight and getting uniformly better results this year. It hasn't stopped me from eating double sized slices of cake the last few nights, but I've been pretty good all cross season. And also, it's Lloyd's Carrot Cake. That stuff is like crack.Bruce van-Schalkwyk said:We had a good crew with Brendan, Sean, Ingrid, David and Adam. I read through all of the comments above and asked Erik to drop my weight. He had me at 195 and put it to 145. That made a huge difference. My average HR was 159 for the hour, instead of 180, though my cadence was way down because he put us on a seemingly easy course that was basically a solid hill requiring a ladder to get up.Because the spinning was much easier for me, I had a solid workout; it was still hard and I sweated down to almost 145, but there was a new, crucial element added: I was left wanting to go harder.
I recently discussed this concept with my brother-in-law, a coach at Cornell. They have one of these insanely expensive (like $60,000) anti-gravity treadmills, that is used for training athletes who have injuries and cannot put the full force of their body weight on their legs. He coaches the women's team, and eating disorders can be a huge problem with women in general with Cross Country/Track and Field, so he never goes there, but in theory...he says that the treadmill is capable of providing that kind of tactile, measurable feedback.
Dec 18, 2014 at 03:28 PM
Yesterday's course had a 5-ish mile climb that was at 9.9% the entire time. I was wholly unprepared and at my fitness riding that length and at that grade, it was very difficult on a 39x26. I looked at Adam's smooth cadence with envy. I'd crawl along pedaling squares around 6mph, have a half minute to minute burst of 7-9mph and then collapse back down to 6mph. It was awful and it hurt and I want to do it again, except better (also with a 28T cog).
Erik's "I love the '90s" soundtrack was right up my alley. Two thumbs up.
Erik's "I love the '90s" soundtrack was right up my alley. Two thumbs up.
Dec 18, 2014 at 03:36 PM
What fun! Next time less hills would be welcome.
Poor Sean's QR was not tightened enough (Fie, Erik!), his bike was basically coming out the entire time but we only realized it afterwards. So that's basically like entering 300 lb into your weight for the computrainer, right?
Didn't have time to swap tires, so I was using my road tires (Hutchinson Fusion) and I think I burned off about 1mm of rubber. It smelled like burning rubber!
These sessions are a welcome departure from laps in the park in bad weather.
Thank you Ingrid for the recovery mix. I owe you a scoop of Osmo.
I'll be doing another one sometime soon. Bruce, you shouldn't lose any more weight or I won't be able to see you when you stand sideways.
Dec 18, 2014 at 05:59 PM
Last night was fun, and kicked my ass-which is exactly what I needed. My QR was loose, causing a bit of wobble but I think it really only got me on that last incline where I didn't really have the option to stay in the saddle. If it made me a bunch slower, oh well, as long as I got a work out in - so be it.
Definitely a lot more fun than the trainer at home, and the time goes by a lot quicker too. Looking to get back for more in January and February and feeling the pain.
Thanks everyone for a good session.
Dec 22, 2014 at 10:46 PM
CompuTrainer will be on again in January. Maybe we can fill up two sessions for January, maybe not. Let's find out!
Dec 22, 2014 at 11:24 PM
Loved the 7:30 last time. Can probably do 1 or 2 of them come January.
Dec 23, 2014 at 12:40 AM
Voted- Yes 7:30 but can only make the last 2 in January.