I've always thought it fairly obvs that the top 10 juiced based on their consistency over 3 weeks of racing.  These races should really be see-saw battles. Great days in the mountains should be followed by days like this..........

what is wrong with people

Jules said:

I'm sorry to say it, but the joy for me is gone from watching the Tour as a sporting event. It's an interesting spectacle but I don't think for a minute the top 10 aren't juicing to the gills.

Jules,
     What would you like to see which might indicate otherwise?

mugwump said:

Jules said:

I'm sorry to say it, but the joy for me is gone from watching the Tour as a sporting event. It's an interesting spectacle but I don't think for a minute the top 10 aren't juicing to the gills.

Jules,
     What would you like to see which might indicate otherwise?

It's a good question JP. For starters I'd like to see the testing pass even a cursory sniff test.

• Credible policies for addressing microdosing, for example
• Bonds posted by race organizers that are forfeit in the event of doping
• Performances (times, VAM, W/kg) that don't rival those in doping's heyday
• longitudinal testing that includes power
• WADA installed and sealed power units on bikes
• clear polices on "finish bottles" and borderline pain medicines like tramadol
• Lastly (for now) data disclosures that aren't clearly intended to check a box and provide next to no relevant information

Jules said:

mugwump said:

Jules said:

I'm sorry to say it, but the joy for me is gone from watching the Tour as a sporting event. It's an interesting spectacle but I don't think for a minute the top 10 aren't juicing to the gills.

Jules,
     What would you like to see which might indicate otherwise?

It's a good question JP. For starters I'd like to see the testing pass even a cursory sniff test.

• Credible policies for addressing microdosing, for example
• Bonds posted by race organizers that are forfeit in the event of doping
• Performances (times, VAM, W/kg) that don't rival those in doping's heyday
• longitudinal testing that includes power
• WADA installed and sealed power units on bikes
• clear polices on "finish bottles" and borderline pain medicines like tramadol
• Lastly (for now) data disclosures that aren't clearly intended to check a box and provide next to no relevant information

Jules,
 
Thanks.

Bonds by race organizers or teams?  

I think over the line pain killers like Tramadol should be one of the easiest to take care of first.  I would think longitudinal testing that includes power would be next.  then bonds.  

I also liked what I think was Pinotti's idea of forfeiting pensions, but the riders union would have to get behind it.

Maybe it's because Armstrong is back in the news today with an interview, but I was reminded of how the 2008 Tour was so close and how the top guys looked to be struggling, and the w/kg numbers seemed to be low compared to what was before and after.  Not that any of the top guys seem particularly clean looking back, but their ascents were in the sub 6 w/kg range.  It's ironic that Allen Lim had a quote back then about guys ascending at 6.7 w/kg being either doping or a human-greyhound hybrid.

Bonds by the race organizers was what I thought although frankly the more people have skin in the game... I love the pension forfeiture idea but a) there is no credible riders union and b) I'm not comfortable yanking someone's pension on the testing ecosystem we've been shown

cool Jules....cool....but not as cool as Cat Stevens in a leather jacket honkin on a Tiparillo (your welcome)

I do not understand why so many people (US cycling fans more than European fans) get so obsessed with the idea of clean professional cycling.

It is just not that big of a deal.

The top level of cycling, like the top level of all sports succeeds not by being clean, but by being engaging, entertaining, spectacular, blah.

Geraint Thomas being blown into a ditch - spectacular
Fabian Cancellara riding 40K solo to win Paris Roubaix - spectacular
Frank VdB attacking up hill in the big ring to win LBL - spectacular

The latter is no less awesome to watch than the first two even though VdB was doped to the gills.

Pro cycling is entertainment, and in the Belgium and Italian heartlands people flock to the roadside to be entertained and enthralled by the the event. They love the event and care less about the stars being puritans.

In this regard we should view cycling in the same context as Baseball, Football, Soccer, Tennis, etc. Sportspeople doing extraordinary things that keep us entertained. No More.

If we keep down the road of demanding that teams and organisers install ever more stringent controls and clawback penalties, etc we will raise the cost of hosting a cycling event to the level where more teams fold and we are left with just a few super teams. They, in turn, need to ride with clinical efficency to ensure a return to the sponsor. Hence more teams like Sky and fewer like FDJ.
We also run the risk of events being held on more 'controlled' circuits (like Flanders) so that spectators have to pay to view the event and hence the organiser can cover the additional cost of controls and bonds.

I will now step off my soap box.

"I do not understand why so many people (US cycling fans more than European fans) get so obsessed with the idea of clean professional cycling."

Cause we pedal bikes in competitions and we do it clean...some of us compete against guys who aren't doing it clean...My sport is a hobby and my hobby a sport.  Dopers are scumbags.  People who trade on inside information = scumbags   Politicians who are corrupt = scumbags
there is a morality contract in play...

“morality consists in the set of rules governing behavior, that rational people would accept, on the condition that others accept them as well.”  I ain't "accepting" dopers hoss

ian ellis said:

In the Belgium and Italian heartlands people flock to the roadside to be entertained and enthralled by the the event. They love the event and care less about the stars being puritans.

I don't know much about Belgium other than the fact that they have two words for cobbles and cocaine, and both of those words are Tom Boonen.

But I do venture to agree that in Italy they share little cause with the Puritan ethic. Rather, Italians revel in the dichotomy of the sinner and the saint. Their fickle sympathies lie alternately with the divine referee who smites those who indulge too much, and with the industrious mortal clever enough to steal glory while his superior rests langourously in heavenly repose.

Professional doping begets amateur doping in order to reach pro ranks, or just to emulate their heroes, and we end up with David Anthony. I don't want to race against dopers and I definitely don't want youth doping to make a career in pro sports.

/Puritan Rant

Dan Reiners said:

Professional doping begets amateur doping in order to reach pro ranks, or just to emulate their heroes, and we end up with David Anthony. I don't want to race against dopers and I definitely don't want youth doping to make a career in pro sports.

/Puritan Rant

+1

oxycodone isn't exactly on the list for the top 50 performance enhancing drugs. I think you file this one under the following https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uh7l8dx-h8M

I'm unna file it under wrong....like putting fish in the microwave wrong

Anyone have two hours to pour salt in their eye?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rEfSdPz1WtA

twoyacks said:

http://velonews.competitor.com/2015/12/news/olympian-bobby-lea-suspended-for-doping-violation_391381

Did you read his letter?  What's disturbing is that it seems he regularly takes medication in order to sleep.  If he's exhausted and can't sleep, something else might well be keeping him up. Maybe it's just caffeine, but even then, it strikes me that if he's taking that much of a legal stimulant, he might be going too far.

From the letter:
"On the night of August 7th, in a state of post-race exhaustion and having run out of my normal sleep aid, I made the poor choice to take my prescription Percocet hoping it would help me rest. This medication had been prescribed by a doctor to help me manage pain and sleep while traveling for competition, especially in the event of a crash. Because it was late at night, and I was trying to sleep, I failed to check my prescribed medication against the prohibited list, an action I have correctly executed hundreds of times over the years. Had I done that I would have seen that Percocet is not banned when used out of competition, but is banned in-competition. Had I done that simple check, the same simple check I’ve done in pharmacies all over the world, I would have reached for another beer or two and I would not find myself here today."

Percocet....if you are taking that shit "hundreds of times" you gotta a bigger problem than checking against a "prohibited list".  Me's thinks his next announcement will be that he is entering a rehab clinic...

Here's the Vive Le Tour documentary from Louis Malle, made back in 1962, where doping is decried for blunting pain.

https://youtu.be/2nLxAKwtBb4?t=643

Bruce van-Schalkwyk said:

He's lying.

Hey may be lying, but we don't need to put words in his mouth.

The thing he claims to have done "100's of times" is "check my prescribed medication against the prohibited list, an action I have correctly executed hundreds of times" 

To me this story is as much about the abject failure of the moral foundations of drug/cheating policies.

Painkiller abuse is an addiction problem - sure he may have been training through pain but the shit ain't epo and it is savagely addictive. It's up there with a "doping" ban for heroin ihmo.

I think it's a little premature to see it only as an addiction problem.  

From what I've read about doping, many of the "breakthroughs" in terms of figuring out drugs that make you perform better, is that the "innovations" are often by accident, and that plenty of people take bad advice from friends and "experts" on how to cheat and go faster.  

For all we know, he was trying to gain an advantage because he heard that Percocet combined with something else provides a real edge--and he was taking the drug with another substance, a legal one.  

USADA rarely tips their hand on matters like this.  If people are doing drug cocktails with Percocet they're not going to tell us unless there's another illegal drug in the mix that was found in his system.

I have trouble sleeping, but I don't have or take percocet. That's the piece that I kinda find troubling, he had a "just in case is needed" prescription for percocet?!? and carries the pills around "just in case" ?!? wtf.

eloy said:

I have trouble sleeping, but I don't have or take percocet. That's the piece that I kinda find troubling, he had a "just in case is needed" prescription for percocet?!? and carries the pills around "just in case" ?!? wtf.

To me this speaks to the reality that professional/elite athletes, as much as we hold them up as paragons of health, are often fucking over their bodies in severe and permanent ways to achieve the required performance.

Maybe he just got some kind of cross contamination from his necklace????

When returning from injury I tried riding on the trainer after taking a percocet. I kept drifting off and forgetting to pedal and thinking only of duvets and pillows. This stuff would absolutely numb the pain of hard training - but I can't imagine having the energy or motivation to get to those pain levels.
Regardless of the reason though - he is 100% responsible for what he takes.

"but was dumbstruck when I was talking to a friend a Richmond Worlds, that is involved in cycling at the highest level.  We were talking about the rampant use of tramadol and he said that many of the riders are now taking oxycodone and even oxycontin when they are racing.  That is crazy."

http://stevetilford.com/2015/12/18/booby-lea-positive/#comments

I appreciate the honesty....as I think the guy is being honest
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/paolini-admits-to-cocaine-use-and-sleeping-tablet-addiction/

twoyacks said:

I appreciate the honesty....as I think the guy is being honest
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/paolini-admits-to-cocaine-use-and-sleeping-tablet-addiction/

Ties in nicely with Lea's story.  I've read  and heard a bit that sleeping drugs are common, and possibly commonly abused, in the pro peloton.  

Sleep is another piece of the training/recovery puzzle.  Some people are better at it than others.  And represents another opportunity to push limits and cheat. 

We need a "mechanical dopers" forum....Ryder must be happy with the new whip...tons of places to hide a motor in that thing
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/ryder-hesjedals-trek-madone-9-series-gallery/