mugwump said:

eloy said:

long time coming
Alberto Salazar gets 4 year ban
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/30/sports/alberto-salazar-doping-ban.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share

Doesn't seem like enough considering all the documented evidence.  A lifetime ban seems more appropriate.  And Nike should be penalized as well.  

I agree with the life time ban of Al.Sal, (he has been doing this shit for years, back to his marathon days. He would take prozac in order to combat overtraining) but Nike is too big in the sport of track to fall. They literally have a stranglehold where meets can exclude non sponser athletes.

I followed Al.Sal through the breaking news back like 4 years ago. The L-Crentine (sp.?) was unethical and immoral but not illegal. He was very Ferarri esq where he would look for the grayest of gray areas. The method he did was a slow drip that did not break the actual rules of the amount in a period of time. For sure this dude is a sneaky guy, just down to the thyroid meds. I think the ban for him is fitting because other than the testosterone, he was just operating in the immoral and unethical aspect of the sport.

I never was a fan of NOP, always found their tactics kinda scummy. Now that our only "real" (I use this term loosely) weapon against the east African EPO filled runners is on a ban and likely his athletes to follow, USA is not going to be as competitive in the marathon.

I don’t know why you think it’s only East Africans using epo. As far as I can tell it’s anyone with an internet connection.

@Jules the reason being I can confidently say its the East Africans is because theres a video floating on the internet showing it. I followed distance running and athletes who moved to Kenya tried to whistle blow but the overall climate there got to them.

There may be plenty of east Africans doping but I'm gonna need a lot more convincing before I'm willing to say their behavior is anything other than average.

Pro sport is infested. There is no African monopoly on it.

FWIW, I think marathon running must be filled with dopers.  There's very little testing at the races, the big races offer big payouts, there are very few races a marathoner can actually run over the course of a year, and just as with cycling, the race promoters and governing bodies don't really want to find out.  

NYRR has doping controls for major races in the city administered by USADA. For example the Bronx 10 Mile had one.

Phil Maronilla said:

NYRR has doping controls for major races in the city administered by USADA. For example the Bronx 10 Mile had one.

I think this is a very common and pernicious beard. "Doping controls" done at the end of a race catch only the dumbest dopers. As many, many folks have demonstrated these controls are both evadable (bribing testers, contaminating samples, masking agents, etc) and only show drugs that are still "glowing"

They also only test for a very, very small range of drugs.

They don't typically test for analogous blood types, red blood cell age ratios, or compare against a longitudinal sample of the athlete's bio passport.

My sense is that end-of-race testing is done to catch amateur dopers - amateur in the sense they're just slamming HGH and testosterone.

As LA famously showed us; you can pass all the tests and still be wildly over the line.

Jules said:

There may be plenty of east Africans doping but I'm gonna need a lot more convincing before I'm willing to say their behavior is anything other than average.

Pro sport is infested. There is no African monopoly on it.

I don't think Connor is saying only EA runners are doping, I think they're just the ones winning most anything over 800m. 

NOP always seemed to have a Team Sky-esque approach to things. For example, I think all of their athletes (including multiple world/olympic champ) apparently have bad asthma. Its good that they finally got Salazar on something for real. 

Now if you want to get really fired up, check out the recent 100m final from the Doha World Champs. First, the stadium was nearly empty for the marquee event of the evening.

 Second, the winner (Christian Coleman) had somehow avoided several whereabouts doping violations (wasn't where he said he would be when USADA came to drug test him out of competition) and the silver medalist was a convicted, unapologetic drug cheat (Justin Gatlin). USATF doesn't look too hot these days. 

tru dat, the report is that Salazar was testing, on his own son, ugh, where the limits of testosterone use would trigger a positive test. which is awful. His argument is that he was scared of someone rubbing testosterone maliciously on his athletes.

I'm a bit feeling all of this, total disclaimer, Nike is today, and has historically been one of my largest clients.

Every pro athlete seems to have asthma, thyroid issues and a host of other things that need TUE's.

Jamaica doesn't have a domestic drug testing program - we've know about that for at least a decade. That makes it a great place to live & train if you don't want to be tested.

The IOC caught Russia red-handed (sorry about the pun) and still let them back into the Olympics.

Nike, Oakley and all the major sports franchises have known about doping for decades.

Doping extends to all sports - archery, curling, XC skiing, weight lifting, swimming, etc.

I'm still not understanding why we'd need a "weapon against the east African EPO filled runners" when doping is a wildfire that extends across national boundaries and infests sport.

The issue really isn't (IMHO) the athletes who will cheat - or try to - that's human nature. The problem is the sponsors and governing bodies who don't really want to stop the behavior - and in fact incentivize it.  Go fast no matter what it takes - just don't get caught! Periodically serving up these kids as scapegoats while they continue to cash the cheques is far more morally reprehensible than any individual doper.

In other words...

I do think they are plenty of sponsors that want to stop the behavior, and trying very hard, and we have seen a pretty significant shift in marketing in the last decade, where cycling companies sell the lifestyle rather than the win.

That's a pretty good indicator of priorities (Think EF/Cannondale vs Ineos, or Rapha vs Pinarello)

I have also learned thru years of working with relatively large companies, that some are so big that have opposing behaviors, streams, and teams in the same company, in other words, Nike has plenty of awesome people that full on despise this. 

For quite a while now, Nike sponsored Bowerman Track Club has generally been considered clean and literally the opposite of Salazar's October Project. 

https://www.outsideonline.com/2389371/bowerman-track-club-nations-best-running-team

The thread is called "Professional Dopers" but I'm starting to think it should be called Corrupt Competition or something that better reflects profoundly unethical governing bodies.

Zwift doper? Well apparently zwift gives you a faster bike if you use zwift a lot. That sounds about as fair as a 2 minute head start at a park race. Makes me want to puke.

Just read that women's gymnastics has watered down the point value of Simone Biles' maneuvers because nobody else can do them. 

https://sports.yahoo.com/simone-biles-blasts-unfair-bull-difficulty-point-value-assessed-to-her-new-element-for-worlds-202235614.html

@eloy Craig Engels has great rebuttal to this. I have always wanted to like Jenny Simpson but engels sums it up pretty well. Definitely give it a watch. It sheds some light to the split people in the group itself are having, you just need to filter out him playing dumb to something's he doesn't know/want to comment on

cpulvidente said:

@eloy Craig Engels has great rebuttal to this. I have always wanted to like Jenny Simpson but engels sums it up pretty well. Definitely give it a watch. It sheds some light to the split people in the group itself are having, you just need to filter out him playing dumb to something's he doesn't know/want to comment on

link?

Jules said:

The thread is called "Professional Dopers" but I'm starting to think it should be called Corrupt Competition or something that better reflects profoundly unethical governing bodies.

Zwift doper? Well apparently zwift gives you a faster bike if you use zwift a lot. That sounds about as fair as a 2 minute head start at a park race. Makes me want to puke.

Just read that women's gymnastics has watered down the point value of Simone Biles' maneuvers because nobody else can do them. 

https://sports.yahoo.com/simone-biles-blasts-unfair-bull-difficulty-point-value-assessed-to-her-new-element-for-worlds-202235614.html

Don’t even get me started on barrier feet...

I saw Engels response. He is suspect as fuck.

He gets the question pretty directly, Engels thinks and states that Simpson is brutal, but then he says he trusts Salazar. Whatever, Salazar is the reason this whole thing is exploding. Salazar is the one that has fucked up and looked for ways to cheat. "Totally sketchy, but I trust him"

Yup, Lance Armstrong also trusted Johan Bruyneel. Biggest cheats in endurance sports.

If Engels is not a cheat, and being honest, it matches my earlier comments, where Pete Julian is a clean coach, and Alberto Salazar not. Have to say, tho, I full on agree with Simpson. Engels and Julian are suspect as fuck.

https://youtu.be/GxIXcBP8Ph4

I look forward to riding with you Connor and chatting about all this, specially around the nuance that the forum doesn't quite allow.

Wow what a complete shitshow of an interview. The "she should tone it down on camera" comments were especially telling, and of course offensive.

Big kudos to the press for pushing him as hard as they did though.

I wish I could say I've never seen this kind of paper thin defense before but ... le sigh.

Kara Goucher is a hero
https://www.bbc.com/sport/athletics/49951671

eloy said:

Kara Goucher is a hero
https://www.bbc.com/sport/athletics/49951671

She is, I hope her sacrifices aren't for nothing. The editorial angle is frustrating too; highlighting how she "struggled and was emotional" or somesuch. FFS.

Salazar was testing drugs on his own son and his cover was that he was trying to see if someone else could sabotage him?

That's like breaking into someone's house and then telling the police "well I was just worried that a real crook might do it so I was testing his locks."

That the absurdity of his defense, and the non-admission of guilt, coupled with a four year ban are not the headlines really does speak volumes. Not to mention the So-and-so, who never tested positive...

Geez what a broken record.

Someone reposted this ad on Reddit. Interesting choice by The Feed 💉

Wow. “Evokes Pantani” with a straight face.

https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/bernal-dismisses-lombardia-favourite-tag-after-evoking-pantani-at-gran-piemonte/

Is Ross really trying to claim that advances in shoe technology  over the years reduces the integrity of the runners ? If so that is utter crap.

Are modern runners supposed to use the same shoes and clothing that marathon runners used to wear ? If so - where is that line drawn ? The original Nike waffle iron shoe. Earlier - plimsolls and cotton clothing ? Or all the back to ancient Greece - togas and leather strap sandals ?

You cannot go back or even stand still - that isn't how evolution works. And he is missing the point that many advancements improve the safety and health of sports people. It would be barbaric to expect runners to wear uncushioned plimsolls for a marathon - just to try and create a level technology bar to gauge records against.

@ian ellis look at your profile picture , I thought that was “your bag”😁

I think he's saying the effort for a 2:03 is the same as a sub 2, with new technology. And the obvious question that raises (for all sport) is what does a record mean? Is it the effort and the athlete or is it Formula 1?

I think it is the effort & athlete BUT taken in the context of the regulations and tech of the era. So one can better a record within the same era and that represents a better athlete. But you cannot really compare records across eras. And most sports seem to make reference to various eras.

I mean the whole sub-2 pursuit is separate from regular marathon racing. Circulating pacers, electric pace-cars, pancake flat course, etc. are all out of the ordinary. Those factors are a bigger deal than fancy shoes. The 1:59:40 was an experiment to open the gates to a sub-2 hour marathon and for the record, I think it was awesome. 

What was maybe just as (if not more) impressive was the 2:14 women's marathon at Chicago (also completed in "The Shoes"™)