I agree it's a contrivance, but I don't know if all the stuff (pacers, drafting, etc) were a bigger deal than the shoes. 4% is huge - almost 5 minutes faster.

Possibly. I think the fact that the entire event was built around Kipchoge (his fitness and talent) factored more than that 4%. 

I predict we’ll see all the middle/long distance (5k and up) records fall very quickly. The rankings will wstay the same but everyone will have a nice shiny world record and a Nike bonus.

Jules said:

I predict we’ll see all the middle/long distance (5k and up) records fall very quickly. The rankings will wstay the same but everyone will have a nice shiny world record and a Nike bonus.

I'll be specific - here are the new markers to beat

	Predicted	Current
1500	3:17:46	3:26.00
Mile	3:34:17	3:43.13
2000	4:33:54	4:44.79
3000	7:03:28	7:20.67
5000	12:07:17	12:37.35
10,000	25:14:46	26:17.53

just to point out, the NY Times searched for some data, and basically figures the Nike Vaporflies are in fact 4% faster
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/07/18/upshot/nike-vaporfly-shoe-strava.html

eloy said:

just to point out, the NY Times searched for some data, and basically figures the Nike Vaporflies are in fact 4% faster
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/07/18/upshot/nike-vaporfly-shoe-strava.html

It's a nice article, although it doesn't mention the three non-nike funded studies that also found a 4% advantage. As we've seen in all other sport; it's rarely a lack of data that is the obstacle because governing bodies encourage doping when inhuman results drive ticket sales/viewership/sponsor dollars cough, cough....



http://www.stickybottle.com/blogs/cycling-fastest-times-alpe-dhuez/

A much longer discussion

https://sportsscientists.com/2019/05/a-short-thought-on-sport-evaluating-eliud-is-kipchoge-a-next-gen-202-marathoner-or-a-mid-204-runner-in-a-technologically-superior-shoe-who-knows/

Tainted beef returns!

https://www.apnews.com/8e413a2cfe3b45b49fc4b67707c5d773

@Jules

I think two of those names don't deserve to be on that list.
- Pedro Delgardo - the article actually states he didn't take a banned substance so he should not be highlighted
- Laurent Fignon - By his own admission he took amphetamines during the post tour criterium circus (which in those days was absolute madness) and don't really count as true races (although I would not like to ride one) as the result is determined before the race even starts. I have never heard of any other implication of drug taking by Fignon in his career.

Also I feel sorry for Alex Zulle being on this list. He would have been a far more successful cyclist if he spent his money on fixing his dreadful eyesight instead of doping. No amount of drug fuelled pedalling will recoup the time lost picking yourself up off the tarmac.

@ian ellis I think the list is just indicative of how densely populated the best times are with dopers. Fore sure there a few in there (Sastre, Cadel?) that deserve the benefit of the doubt.

Really what I was saying is that the data is there, in the world for everyone to see. The real question isn't "are they cheating" it's "why is blatant cheating ignored so often?"

#ymmv

@Jules IMO when something is so obvious it also means that it has become pervasive within the entire ecosystem.
If all the top riders are doping then team principles need to ignore it or else they won't have any top riders - they won't get results - the team will fold - the principle & the staff will be unemployed. Likewise the journalists and pundits need access to the top riders so they need to ask 'soft' questions that maintains their access - and keeps them employed'. It gets to the point where nobody dare upset the situation since their own livelihood depends on that very structure.

It is not unique to cycling or sports - just look at the White House & Senate relationship we have today (apologies for straying into politics).

Completely agree @ian ellis I found this podcast to be a fascinating dive into corruption in sport. Incredible to say I even learned something new (boosting?!?) but one like stood out; “cycling is a beautiful blend of honor and chicanery” or words to that effect; wait for a rival with a puncture but “gift” stages back and forth all while everyone is doping.

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-real-science-of-sport-podcast/id1461719225?i=1000449136593

Uh... https://www.cyclingnews.com/races/saitama-criterium-2019/results/

Jules said:

Uh... https://www.cyclingnews.com/races/saitama-criterium-2019/results/

I don't know if this belongs in the pro dopers thread.  

This is more the soft corruption of exhibition races.  Bernal and Roglic are in their leaders jerseys.  Take a deeper look at the intermediate sprints and KoMs--local riders did really well.  This is a show, not a race.

Yeah I think this is belongs in the WWE thread

agreed. How many different threads on cheating are needed, really?

Jules said:

agreed. How many different threads on cheating are needed, really?

I guess this could belong here, as we don't have a 'result doping' thread.  Yet.

worth mention these are not exactly cheating, the concept of exhibition games is well established not only in cycling.

altho I find actual racing more fun, obvs.

To make it worth being in the doping thread, I'll remember when Lance Armstrong came to the NYC Cycling Championships Criterium in Wall Street, think it was 2002, one week after winning* the TdF. All other riders wanted to drop him, Lance's face the first few laps was omg wtf holding on for dear life.

eloy said:

To make it worth being in the doping thread, I'll remember when Lance Armstrong came to the NYC Cycling Championships Criterium in Wall Street, think it was 2002, one week after winning* the TdF. All other riders wanted to drop him, Lance's face the first few laps was omg wtf holding on for dear life.

The "backside slide" is real.  Must have hurt.  The clean riders probably had fun with that thought.

I’ve offered to provide my side of this story to all the major sports outlets in the UK but it appears nobody is interested.

Should be an interesting couple of days for BC, Sir Brad, Ineos, Dave B, Shane Sutton...

Fascinating deep dive into the Nike shoe.

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-shoe-that-broke-running/id1461719225?i=1000454638981

Ok, now I’ve seen something new. 

ROFL

"Here is a copy of all my bank information and clear it from your mail box, or my balls may be cut off," Kolobnev reportedly said in an email.

Vinokourov replied, saying: "You have done everything properly, do not worry. As you say, the Earth is round and God sees everything ... So, again thank you. You, this year you will win the championship finally, I believe. Do not worry about the agreement, I will do it."

Clean as the driven snow, for sure.

https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/vinokourov-the-judge-made-the-only-fair-decision/

Under normal circumstances I'd be all like 



but I think this one warrants

To be fair, Sutton kinda sounds like he’s jacked up on testosterone 

I don’t really think laughing at anyone’s distress is fair but watching this house of cards crumble after *how many* grand tour podiums and “marginal gains my ass” does seem fitting

As we already knew, Sutton is a bad person. What was new for me (from the commentary on Steve Peters evidence) was the degree of latitude that Sutton had been allowed to have, even though they knew that his "methods" did not sit well with the majority of the riders at BC. Linked to the results driven Lottery funding that Olympic sports in the UK are essentially beholden to. I don't know if I'm being rather naive in my thinking but to me it seems that Sutton exercised a very strong influence over Dr Freeman which could definitely include ordering gear for him. What Sutton intended to do with it is still unclear to me.   

I think the idea of a single bad actor is fiction. He's pissed because he's being made the fall guy for something everyone was in on. By all accounts BC has a rich history of unpleasant behavior, and win-at-all-costs mentality from top to bottom.

The fact that the Queen is handing out knightships (knight-hoods) for star performers does not help.