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Professional Dopers

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May 20, 2020 at 01:35 PM

I've long thought that Armstrong started doping as a junior. Seeing this article, it seems like he's revising his doping timeline ever younger, and giving space to revise it down yet again.

"During the clip, in which former US Postal Service teammates Tyler Hamilton and George Hincapie respond to the same question about performance-enhancing drugs, Armstrong, now 48, explains there are “a bunch of ways to define doping.”

“The easiest way to define it is [by] breaking the rules. Were we getting injections of vitamins and other things like that at an earlier age? Yes, but they weren’t illegal. I always asked (what I was being given). I always knew, and I always made the decision on my own,” he said. “Nobody said, ‘Don’t ask, this is what you’re getting.’ I never, ever would have gone for that. I educated myself on what was being given, and I chose to do it.”""

https://www.velonews.com/news/armstrong-admits-to-doping-during-his-rookie-season/

May 21, 2020 at 02:27 AM

Extra large popcorn please!

https://amp.usatoday.com/amp/5226110002?

Jun 11, 2020 at 10:08 PM

https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/campenaerts-sets-altitude-tent-to-4700m-to-feel-like-a-rider-on-epo/

I think this is a good example. Why is one legal and the other isn't? I think both yay, or both nay, makes more sense... but then what about the guys who can afford to go sleep in La Paz and chopper down to sea level to train. Is *that* fair?

Jun 11, 2020 at 10:25 PM

Jules said:

https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/campenaerts-sets-altitude-tent-to-4700m-to-feel-like-a-rider-on-epo/

I think this is a good example. Why is one legal and the other isn't? I think both yay, or both nay, makes more sense... but then what about the guys who can afford to go sleep in La Paz and chopper down to sea level to train. Is *that* fair?

I've hiked and ridden in the high mountains, read extensively on altitude tents, and used one.

I think there's a world of difference.

Living at altitude exacts a toll on the body that seems entirely different than that of EPO. Namely, it's much harder to train and recover at altitude. Sleep isn't as restful because you can't get in as much oxygen per breath.

I've slept at 14,000' for several nights. It isn't as restful. Exercising at that altitude gets progressively harder for a week or two, then it starts to get easier, but it is never as easy. I walked up to almost 18,000' once, the air is pretty thin; I'm sure it would get easier if I lived at that altitude, but not sure if people can ever train as hard. Recovery is harder as well.

I also believe that, for the most part, the body's response to it is not as dramatic as the body's response to EPO. And in terms of longer-term issues, a result of EPO is the body partially shuts down (I believe) hematocrit production, which could become a serious long-term health issue. Anabolic steroid abuse and cortisone abuse appears to have long-term adverse health consequences as well.

I should add that I think the stories of Armstrong and other dopers using altitude tents was largely cover for doping. Don't know how much they really used them, and I have my doubts that it was extensive. But maybe Ferrari figured out something about combining EPO with tents.

With the latest crop of pros going to Tenerife, I think it suggests that the tents aren't that effective, but the training environment is what they're going for. No one to see, nothing to do but ride and sleep, and maybe testers don't get there all that often.

Jun 11, 2020 at 10:32 PM

I wonder about finding places too expensive for testers to get to; seems an obvious and easy strategy to employ. First I've heard that the tents don't work as advertised though. If can slowly raise the sleeping height over time I don't think the toll would be as high.

Jun 12, 2020 at 08:15 PM

Jules said:

I wonder about finding places too expensive for testers to get to; seems an obvious and easy strategy to employ. First I've heard that the tents don't work as advertised though. If can slowly raise the sleeping height over time I don't think the toll would be as high.

It's not so much that they don't work as advertised, but they're complex and they are definitely a royal PITA--and if they as effective, then why are so many pros going to altitude when they can be at home and at virtual altitude?

While I pursued a too-aggressive build when I tested one out--ecommended by the guy selling them, a former olympian who did van life in the early 90s by driving high every night in Colorado--even a slow build isn't easy. It's hard to know where the lesser physical toll is, living high or simulating it.

Jul 18, 2020 at 07:03 PM

“That’s what leaders of that caliber do,” Demol said. “I’ve worked with Armstrong, Contador, and Cancellara. Men like that give everyone a ‘boost’ by their performance but also by their attitude. That will be no different with Froome.”

Uh... bro? These are not the comparisons you are looking for.

https://www.velonews.com/news/road/froome-move-a-step-back-but-understandable-say-ineos-teammates/

Aug 24, 2020 at 02:51 PM

"Utterly dominated"...... the Dutch.

https://www.cyclingnews.com/races/netherlands-road-championships-2020/road-race-elite-men/results/

Sep 11, 2020 at 05:54 PM

Reading about Operation Aderlass this morning before turning on the tour .... How many years before a Slovenian based doping ring makes the news ??

Sep 11, 2020 at 05:57 PM

ian ellis said:

Reading about Operation Aderlass this morning before turning on the tour .... How many years before a Slovenian based doping ring makes the news ??

I think they operate on a queue. First in line is Sky's "marginal gains" then the Slovenians then the Columbians. After that I think we round robin back to the Americans and then Germany.

Sep 16, 2020 at 01:38 PM

Has anyone commented on if regular at-home testing was interrupted during all the European lockdowns?

Sep 16, 2020 at 02:48 PM

Jules said:

Has anyone commented on if regular at-home testing was interrupted during all the European lockdowns?

haven't seen it yet, but it's a good question.

Just checked

"From January 1 to August 31, 2020, more than 5,000 samples were collected. This represents half the number of samples collected in 2019 for the same period, which is explained by the high number of UCI events cancelled in 2020 due to the COVID-19 pandemic," the CADF said in a statement sent to Reuters."

Pinot was last tested October, 2019, and next at the Dauphine.

https://ca.news.yahoo.com/cycling-anti-doping-testing-back-175519801.html

Sep 16, 2020 at 03:02 PM

mugwump said:

Jules said:

Has anyone commented on if regular at-home testing was interrupted during all the European lockdowns?

haven't seen it yet, but it's a good question.

Just checked

"From January 1 to August 31, 2020, more than 5,000 samples were collected. This represents half the number of samples collected in 2019 for the same period, which is explained by the high number of UCI events cancelled in 2020 due to the COVID-19 pandemic," the CADF said in a statement sent to Reuters."

Pinot was last tested October, 2019, and next at the Dauphine.

https://ca.news.yahoo.com/cycling-anti-doping-testing-back-175519801.html

Great find JP.

Sep 21, 2020 at 01:49 AM

https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/tom-dumoulin-i-was-closer-to-stopping-than-continuing-my-career/

The theme of bewilderment continued on Sunday, with the 30-year-old insisting that he had put up power numbers comparable to his 2017 World Championships time trial victory in Bergen, Norway.

"My values were World Championship-worthy values. That's great to see," he said. "That's why I was all the more surprised that Pogačar was 1:21 faster.

"I'm sure I can tell you I'm never going to reach that level. I may be able to win one per cent somewhere, but not five per cent."

Sep 21, 2020 at 01:59 AM

Sep 21, 2020 at 02:22 AM

"I don't know how Pogačar climbed a minute faster than I did,"--Tom Dumoulin

So, let's get this straight. A former world champ put up numbers comparable to his world championship ride at the end of a three week race and then was beaten by 21 seconds on the flats and another minute on the climb. If I were to guess, I'd bet Dumoulin had his position honed in the wind tunnel. Don't know about Pogacar.

As a friend pointed out to me during the 2008 Tour, time trials should be fairly predictable. When someone turns in an anomalous good result, there are only a few possibilities to explain it: 1. course conditions changed (rain, wind, etc). 2. the rider with the anomaly has changed something in terms of equipment or position that makes the rider faster. 3. Doping.

At the 2008 Tour, Stefan Schumacher was a pretty good racer who was suddenly turning in incredible times. You could see that the best time trialists at the Tour were pretty much within seconds of each other and somehow Schumacher crushed them. He hadn't switched bike or position and his start order was not earlier or later than other top riders. He tested positive for EPO-Cera at both the Tour an the Olympics.

This year, Pogacar beat Roglic at the Slovenian TT champs. 15.7km. He beat Primoz by 9 seconds. So we'd expect a 22 second gap or so over 36km.

Roglic won the Slovenian road championships by out-climbing Pogacar up a 8.3km 7.8% grade climb. He won by 10 seconds

The race of truth can be revealing.

Sep 21, 2020 at 02:25 AM

Oh JP, you and your crazy ideas

Image: https://media.giphy.com/media/JrvJ8MzRfgqrnEKMMC/giphy.gif

Sep 21, 2020 at 03:49 AM

Interesting bit of info from Cyclingnews...

Pogacar didn't use a pwoermeter or computer during the TT.

Sep 21, 2020 at 12:35 PM

@mugwump , Sadly , I find it hard to fathom the minute he put into Dumoulin but Comparing Stefan Schumacher and Pojacar career trajectories seems wrong ,Pojacar has never been " pretty good" , the reasons for that could be hes been doping since he was a teenager

Sep 21, 2020 at 01:49 PM

https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/racing/tour-de-france/nairo-quintanas-hotel-room-was-searched-by-police-during-final-week-of-tour-de-france-according-to-reports-469397/amp

Sep 21, 2020 at 02:56 PM

This video is 🔥 via @FloSports App
https://www.flobikes.com/video/6784402-did-exceptional-blood-help-tadej-pogacar-win-the-tour-de-france

Sep 21, 2020 at 03:19 PM

@Mark Taylor

good point. And thanks for the link, though I can't unlock it yet.

However, I did some more looking. In 2019, both were going for max efforts at the Vuelta. Pogacar lost 1:29 to Roglic in pretty flat 36.2km TT. Roglic won the stage and the Vuelta. Pogacar finished third.

I tried to put all my concerns here: http://jralong.com/2020/09/21/we-wont-get-fooled-again/

It's long, but I hope thorough.

Sep 21, 2020 at 03:50 PM

That's a real good one JP. I think the bag o'wristbands is just perfect.
(small typo in the final paragraph)

Sep 21, 2020 at 03:54 PM

On the "evidence for side-eye" front I think this is about as thorough as anyone would want. You left out the most recent Slovenia-Aderlass connection but it's thin.

I do think it's worth restating that the incentives for news commentary for/against are wildly asymmetrical.

Sep 21, 2020 at 06:45 PM

Great piece JP.

We wanted to believe Lance because he was the face of cancer survivorship.

We (or maybe I) want to believe Pog (as well as WvA, Tom and Sepp) because he is young and likable. Part of me want to believe that a nice young guy couldn't get messed up something so sinister. But its also hard to believe

Sep 21, 2020 at 11:06 PM

https://www.velonews.com/events/tour-de-france/reports-french-police-search-quintanas-room-during-tour-de-france/

Sep 22, 2020 at 06:43 PM

Inrng adds some info about the staff that work with Pogacar...

All this would be better if [Pogacar] wasn’t managed by the likes of Andrej Hauptman, Mauro Gianetti, and Joxean “Matxin” Fernández. Hauptman managed to leave the 2000 Tour de France before it started thanks to a failed blood test. Gianetti is “no paragon of virtue”, not this blog’s words, it’s Tour director Christian Prudhomme in 2008 following the Saunier Duval team’s scandals while Matxin was behind Juan José Cobo’s discredited Vuelta ~~win~~. Does this incriminate Pogačar? Of course not, but it’s the worm in the apple and one of these stories that hits the front page at the Tour de France because it’s the Tour de France. When Pogačar was winning in Abu Dhabi or even the Vuelta it was a forum topic but win the Tour de France and it goes mainstream, news agency AFP explores Pogačar’s entourage, France Télévisions had a report last night. It’s also the winners curse, had Roglič won we’d have got more about Jumbo-Visma being Rabobank in new colours, how staff today used to help Denis Menchov and Carlos Barredo and so on. Good luck finding a pro team without staff from cycling’s leaden years but one difference is UAE management have brushed away questions rather while others have done a mea culpa.

https://inrng.com/2020/09/the-moment-the-2020-tour-de-france-was-won/#more-37907

Sep 22, 2020 at 07:05 PM

Similar piece here
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/sep/22/climate-of-suspicion-returns-to-tour-de-france-to-dampen-celebrations

Sep 22, 2020 at 07:33 PM

I see what Inrng is getting at.

All the same, some of the numbers from the 2019 Vuelta are more believable

https://www.velonews.com/events/vuelta-a-espana/power-analysis-tadej-pogacars-vuelta-espana-part-1/
https://www.velonews.com/news/power-analysis-how-tadej-pogacar-won-stage-20-of-the-vuelta-a-espana/

Observatorio Astrofísico de Javalambre (second half): 16:47
Avg Power: 386 W (5.85 W/kg)
Avg Gradient: 9.7%
Avg Cadence: 89 rpm

Chemin Beauvallon (opening 4 km): 5:05
Avg Power: 414 W (6.27 W/kg)
Avg Speed: 22.4 kph (13.9 mph)
Avg Gradient: 8.0%
Avg Cadence: 96 rpm

And then on edge
https://www.velonews.com/events/vuelta-a-espana/power-analysis-tadej-pogacars-vuelta-a-espana-part-2/

Alto de Urrutzimendi: 6:04
Avg Power: 430 W (6.52 W/kg)
Avg Gradient: 12.4%
Avg Cadence: 83 rpm

Alto de Arraiz: 7:22
Avg Power: 446 W (6.76 W/kg)
Avg Gradient: 13.3%
Avg Cadence: 85 rpm

Santuario del Acebo: 26:45
Avg Power: 424 W (6.42 W/kg)
Avg Gradient: 9.5%
Avg Cadence: 91 rpm

Puerto de San Lorenzo (steep part): 20:26
Avg Power: 421 W (6.38 W/kg)
Avg Gradient: 10.9%
Avg Cadence: 88 rpm

Sep 26, 2020 at 11:42 PM

I forgot an amazing tidbit; Carapaz was the second slowest on the flat because the climb counted for KOM and he still lost over a minute to Pog on the climb.

😂

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