Professional Dopers - Forum Archive

Oct 30, 2012 at 07:25 PM

So here is the latest from Chris Carmichael - this sad excuse for a sideway denial is so bizarre. If I didn't have such a good (and long) relationship with my coach I'd call & cancel straight away. What planet is this guy on that he thinks this kind of thing will fly?

With all the news from pro cycling over the past few weeks, I wanted to reach out to CTS Athletes with a short message. I’ve dedicated my professional life to bringing elite-level coaching to all endurance athletes, and the success of CTS coaching – your coaching - is entirely based on sound sports science, strong relationships, and proven coaching methods.

Regarding Lance Armstrong, you can read my comments from a recent interview with Velonews. Here's the link to the article<http://velonews.competitor.com/2012/08/news/carmichael-on-armstrong-im-convinced-he-was-the-best-athlete_236067>.

As I celebrated my 52nd birthday last week, I thought about how Carmichael Training Systems has grown since we started the business a dozen years ago. CTS has been successful for reasons beyond me or the success of any one person. CTS is successful because sound training principles and great coaching relationships continue to deliver race-winning results to thousands of athletes at all levels of sport. I'm proud of what you and all CTS Athletes and Coaches have accomplished, from Olympic medals and Ironman World Championships to first centuries and victories in small-town criteriums. Thank you for your continued commitment to CTS and for trusting us to help you reach your fitness and performance goals.

Ryan J

Oct 30, 2012 at 08:42 PM

Wow.

Well, I guess at this point if one had to publicly state a belief in Lance's innocence, this would be about the best they could come up with:

“This is the only thing I’ll say about that...In 20 years, I never saw him use any banned substances, and in my eyes, seeing is believing.”

Jules

Oct 30, 2012 at 08:56 PM

I find it both despicable and insulting.

The worst part is that by sending this out he is basically forcing all the people who work with him into either accepting (and colluding with) this gross deceit with silence, or leaving their job. Remind you of anything?

There are plenty of good, hardworking and honest people who work there - and none of them except Chris are making lots of money.

What a jerk.

mugwump

Oct 30, 2012 at 11:46 PM

I don't know the guy, but both Floyd thought his "coaching" of armstrong was a joke and Tyler called him a lame cheerleader. He appears to have at the very least colluded in the doping of juniors and elite athletes when he was coaching at USA Cycling, if he didn't do the injections himself.

THe problem he has is that Lance is what build his business and is probably a major investor. I'm sure Lance doesn't have a problem seeing the CTS ship go down because of him.

Jules

Oct 31, 2012 at 12:52 AM

I don't know how critical LA's contribution is these days. I think it's as much about Cris coming out and admitting a) it was the EPO & blood bags that won those tours not his stellar training and b) he was either an idiot (ala Cisco) or a liar.

Ryan J

Oct 31, 2012 at 01:51 AM

Yeah, it doesn't seem like Lance ever really respected CC as a coach...

Anyway, maybe I'm naive but it actually seems basically logical to me to think that Lance Armstrong was the best athlete. I know you can't know that for sure because different athletes respond differently to the EPO, and some have a natural hematocrit closer to the limit so there's less to gain, so the "level playing field argument" is a faulty one, etc...

And it's obviously silly for anyone to not list dope right alongside his watts per KG when they talk about his success.

But I have a hard time believing that all other things being equal, Armstrong would've been just another rider. He was always a freak of nature, from the time he was a teenager.

Jules

Oct 31, 2012 at 01:56 AM

Ryan J said:

But I have a hard time believing that all other things being equal, Armstrong would've been just another rider. He was always a freak of nature, from the time he was a teenager.

I think it's entirely suspect. Tyler's account of a new Lance on the team was someone whose arms were so big (presumably from the steriods he'd been doing since...?) he had to cut the sleeves off. Was the Lance the best 1 day rider, or the best 21 day rider? The best climber or the best time trialist?

I find it incredibly hard to believe he was all of the above, especially in light of the evidence and accounts - without dope, blood bags and the ability to withhold "best of" doping from his competitors.

Regardless - it's impossible ever to say without going back in time - we can say with certainty he was the best tour de france doped rider for a long time (and that includes meaning he was good at finding way to sabotage the doping programs of others)

mugwump

Oct 31, 2012 at 02:22 AM

Ryan,

Lance had several physiological limiters that would have made it hard to compete without Ferrari doping him. First, his VO2 max was around 81 when he was skinny, 75 when he wasn't. As a point of comparison, LeMond's was around 92. So probably climbing would have been a limiter. While Lance did get really skinny, I don't think he was as thin as he has reported, so again, climbing would have been a limiter. He also had an average hematocrit at best--probably wasn't ever over 43 naturally.

So, no, without the drugs, he probably would have been a good classics rider and a good one-week stage racer. Mountainous races and three-week tours would not have been kind to him.

Jeff Owens

Oct 31, 2012 at 03:02 AM

LeMond doped. If you don't believe that....where's that bridge I can sell you?

45-52 is completely natural hematocrit for a male. Again, I'm not saying lance didn't dope (duh).

Also, if you're supporting the junior-rider-drug-pushing Carmichael, you are part of the problem. Jules, you're so vehemently anti-doping and righteous about this, I don't understand how you ever used his "system". Get rid of that guy ASAP!

Love you guys. XOXOXO

JohnMalcolmson

Oct 31, 2012 at 06:29 PM

@ Owens.

I'd go with the Chief. Lemond was clean, he hates dopers.

Truth is, he was a freak talent like Coppi, beating national level juniors (18year olds) at age 15. As a 16 year old national champ he beats US mens national champ Wayne Stetina:

Junior world RR champ at 17 (and with just 30 mins notice rides to bronze in pursuit).

First ever American winner of a European stage race etc, etc.

P.S. this super 8 footage of him winning the RR in 1977 is pretty awesome:

http://www.ridetheblackline.com/post/1520003248/young-lemond-at-1977-uscf-national-championships

normanzo

Nov 01, 2012 at 01:51 AM

Can't believe you guys are jumpin' on the mob think bandwagon and dissin' Lance's achievements. Only reason Lance hushed-up is because the Feds were gettin close to his real training and performance secret... that's right Lance and Johan were forcing the team to apply this technique to their pedaling:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkpOL7gEuTM

And, here's the proof:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L7Gfko8kLjQ

mugwump

Nov 01, 2012 at 04:00 AM

LeMond has had a few odd things, like his recovery at the '89 Giro the day after a iron shot or something. At the same time, LeMond has been so vocally anti-doping for so long, that if a former friend, teammate, supplier, fellow doper had something on him, I'm sure they would have come out by now to call him a hypocrite.

It also appears he can't stop talking about anything on his mind. Once he begins, he doesn't quiet down for hours--hard to keep that up and hide doping.

normanzo

Nov 01, 2012 at 01:54 PM

Did you guys read Jens' article? It's very difficult not to be a devout skeptic on doping in the sport, but this article seems refreshing:

http://bicycling.com/blogs/hardlyserious/2012/10/30/turbulent-times/#.UJAU59_csrA.twitter

Jeff Owens

Nov 01, 2012 at 03:36 PM

Did you see southpark last night? Jesus got caught doping while doing miracles, so people cut off their WWJD bracelets. It was decent, not great.

vlad

Nov 01, 2012 at 04:00 PM

brilliance

http://www.southparkstudios.com/full-episodes/s16e13-a-scause-for-applause

Jules

Nov 01, 2012 at 04:25 PM

Norm I read this and although I do LOVE ME some Jens, I find the "I wasn't really aware of what the other guys were doing" rings a little hollow. If Greg LeMonde, Zabriskie, etc were getting BLOWN OUT THE BACK in those days, was Jens just feeling like it was a hard day? I would love to think he didn't dope (and his 'brains-in-a-blender' style leads me to think he'd be the first to get caught from ineptitude) but it's hard to believe he wasn't more aware of what others were up to.

normanzo said:

Did you guys read Jens' article? It's very difficult not to be a devout skeptic on doping in the sport, but this article seems refreshing:
http://bicycling.com/blogs/hardlyserious/2012/10/30/turbulent-times/#.UJAU59_csrA.twitter

Jeffrey White

Nov 01, 2012 at 05:05 PM

Jules said:

Norm I read this and although I do LOVE ME some Jens, I find the "I wasn't really aware of what the other guys were doing" rings a little hollow. If Greg LeMonde, Zabriskie, etc were getting BLOWN OUT THE BACK in those days, was Jens just feeling like it was a hard day? I would love to think he didn't dope (and his 'brains-in-a-blender' style leads me to think he'd be the first to get caught from ineptitude) but it's hard to believe he wasn't more aware of what others were up to.

normanzo said:

Did you guys read Jens' article? It's very difficult not to be a devout skeptic on doping in the sport, but this article seems refreshing:
http://bicycling.com/blogs/hardlyserious/2012/10/30/turbulent-times/#.UJAU59_csrA.twitter

If Voigt wasn't personally involved in doping, I imagine he really didn't know what others were doing. That is different from saying he didn't know it was happening at all. In my opinion, he tells a nice little story that is in all likelihood a substantial distortion of the truth, even if he actually didn't dope.

mugwump

Nov 01, 2012 at 07:41 PM

I don't believe that he didn't have at least strong inklings, if not people explicitly telling him, if not some pretty obvious signs of doping going down. People talk. And when you see people enough, you often get a sense of who they are and what they're capable of.

It's disappointing that so few are willing to let the public in on this world. Getting an understanding of this is, I believe, important to understand how to limit doping in the future.

Jules

Nov 01, 2012 at 07:46 PM

Let me put it this way; Jens is so observant he knows what gear on Sam Johnson's cassette, but he's oblivious to oxygen vector doping, the equivalent of strapping a rocket to your ass?

Methinks the Jensie doth protest too much...

https://player.vimeo.com/video/48172874

JohnMalcolmson

Nov 02, 2012 at 06:29 PM

BAM!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2012/nov/01/paul-kimmage-pat-mcquaid-criminal-complaint

josephmueller

Nov 02, 2012 at 07:14 PM

Just figured I would pass this along incase you know someone who needs to get something off their chest: http://sorryidoped.com/

Jules

Nov 05, 2012 at 06:36 PM

http://www.wired.com/opinion/2012/10/lance-armstrong-and-the-prisoners-dilemma-of-doping-in-professional-sports/

Bruce Schneier on the "arms race"

Jeff Owens

Nov 06, 2012 at 01:10 AM

Anybody read this? http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/armstrongs-fraud-paralleled-epo-makers-feud I find big pharma analysis more interesting than cycling doping breakdown, so was just curious if it was a good read or drowing in technical data. Who needs that crap...

Nathaniel Miller

Nov 08, 2012 at 10:26 AM

Just ran across this article, via a link from Velosnooze. It's by pro cyclist WIll Routley. First sentence:

“I had no choice, I had to ‘cross the line’ or end my dream.” This is just a taste of the utter garbage that has filled my ears as of late.
http://www.vancouversun.com/sports/story.html?id=7502237&fb_comment_id=fbc_249714488487817_29368822_249940521798547#f1a43bf22

konrad

Nov 10, 2012 at 03:04 PM

How about this? A seemingly clean rider who openly regrets not doping. http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/joachim-supports-armstrong-says-no-organized-doping-at-us-teams

whaaaaa

mugwump

Nov 10, 2012 at 08:43 PM

Joachim got popped for doping, temporarily suspended by US Postal, cleared on a technicality, and remained a key member of US Postal for its entire run. USADA didn't approach him because they didn't have anything on him, not that he was clean.

dstokes

Nov 10, 2012 at 09:47 PM

Can someone explain the physiology of this:

The treatments are said to have involved removing blood from the athletes, treating it with black light, and re-infusing it.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/ard-link-kittel-to-german-blood-doping-investigation

alyoshas

Nov 10, 2012 at 10:01 PM

"The procedure involved taking blood from the athletes, treating it with UV light, or black light, and then re-introducing it into the athlete's body. This is said to help the oxygen in the blood. It was practised in East German sports in the 1980s." (Cyclingnews, different article)

the physiology behind this...still clueless.

Marc Bertucco

Nov 11, 2012 at 03:16 AM

Sheeet....this is a fascinating interview:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/joachim-supports-armstrong-says-no-organized-doping-at-us-teams

Joachim regrets NOT doping!

Dan Reiners

Nov 11, 2012 at 12:24 PM

Can someone explain the physiology of this:

The treatments are said to have involved removing blood from the athletes, treating it with black light, and re-infusing it.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/ard-link-kittel-to-german-blood-doping-investigation

It was all about the labs getting black lights for their Led Zepplin posters. It was a real challenge to get those in East Germany back in the day, but if you could claim it would make athletes better, you got it.