Thanks for the input dudes. Leaning towards selling the new ones. As my bike collection grows, it seems important to have more wheels around, but these 2 sets seem too similar to even make sense. I could grab some heavier duty training wheels for cheap or go in the opposite direction and get something really sweet to race on.

Mike...I always poo-poo'd carbon tubulars as unecessary and more maintenance than they are worth. But after Mark Taylor sold me his 50mm Neuvations, I'm convinced they are worth it. Whether or not they are actually faster, I don't care as they just FEEL fast as hell. I only race on them and keep them in wheel bags so they should last a long time. After a full season on them I would dread not having them on the bike in a race. That's all I got.
Yack
p.s. through trickle down technology, we will all be on electronic shifting some day soon

JP's and Ian's are excellent. One other consideration, which isn't anything new, is that when considering rims and aerodynamics, there is really no aero effect until the rim height gets beyond 40mm in depth. Correct me if I'm wrong guys, but Zipp and others have good data on this issue.

As far as Yack's goes, I am shocked he has moved on to 21th century technology. The reasons to like tubulars are many. The rims are wider, giving a better tire contact area. Pinch flatting doesn't occur, so you can run whatever pressure you are comfortable with. Casings are more supple, by the very way tubular tires are made. The lists go on. While tubeless tires do offer some advantages/improvements, (I use them for my 'cross set up) like reducing pinch flatting, road feel, tire pressure, the present construction of the rims and tires cannot beat an average tubular. Casings of tubeless and rim beads, must be over constructed to stand up to the forces encountered by these wheel sets or else the tires would blow off the rims.

I am sure Yacks would agree with me when I say, if you are doing more than a few races per year, you really should have a dedicated tubular race set up.

Charlie L

A tire study from German bike magazine "Tour":
http://www.conti-online.com/generator/www/de/en/continental/bicycle/general/downloads/download/tourtest_gp4000s_en.pdf

If you believe the study, it seriously puts into doubt any idea that tubulars outperform clinchers. Who knows how many advertising dollars Conti throws at that magazine (the 4000s tested best), after all. Then again, Conti makes really nice handmade sew-ups, too.

This could be the topic of a dedicated discussion.

I have Conti Grand Prix's....on my training wheels that have seen thousands of miles on my rollers. The difference in ride quality between the Conti's and my Vittoria's Open Tubulars with latex tubes is night and day. Maybe I don't save any time...but life is too short to ride dead feeling rubber. Dare I say, they make an aluminum frame ride like Ti.

And Charlie...the only 21st century tenchnology you've been rockin lately is the Diaper Genie! Oh that just happened...

Wrong!!!!!!!!!!!
That's late 20th century technology. Unless you're talking about the Diaper Genie II Elite. Now there is something that blows titanium out of the water. Smooth joint, spring action lid, wide rimmed mouth,...
You found my sweet spot.

If they make one in titanium...I'm getting the vasechtomy reversed !!!

Quick Survey: I ordered a Hed Belgian wheelset with CK r45 hubs (24 front / 28 back) from the shop where I got my IF --Signature Cycles. The mechanic there (John) has always been really great and has lots of wheel building experience so I trusted him for the job. I picked the wheels up today and they look nicely built and true, as expected.

However, once I got home, I noticed that the front wheel was a 28 spoke affair instead of the agreed upon 24. It's only 4 extra spokes (24 grams), but I'd rather get what I ordered. But, since I won't likely be able to tell the difference, except maybe that the 28 spoke version is stiffer which could be a good thing, I'm considering keeping the front wheel as is and just sending the guy responsible for the ordering (Grant Salter) some choice words.

What would you guys do?

Posted By: normanzoQuick Survey: I ordered a Hed Belgian wheelset with CK r45 hubs (24 front / 28 back) from the shop where I got my IF --Signature Cycles. The mechanic there (John) has always been really great and has lots of wheel building experience so I trusted him for the job. I picked the wheels up today and they look nicely built and true, as expected.

However, once I got home, I noticed that the front wheel was a 28 spoke affair instead of the agreed upon 24. It's only 4 extra spokes (24 grams), but I'd rather get what I ordered. But, since I won't likely be able to tell the difference, except maybe that the 28 spoke version is stiffer which could be a good thing, I'm considering keeping the front wheel as is and sending the guy responsible for the ordering (Grant Salter) with some choice words.

What would you guys do?

Norm, if I owned a business I would want to know a mess up was made so I could do my best to correct it and make the customer happy.

^ this

wise man say: "the second you settle for less than you deserve, you get less than you settled for"

that said, a gentle approach will make people much more likely to own up/help you out - save the choice words for that deaf kid who plays trumpet next door

Got a question for those who know a thing or two about track racing...

is it legal to use a 650c front wheel and a 700c rear? I have a 650 tri spoke I thought about using but am not sure if it would be allowed under the rules

thanks

Posted By: Wojciech PGot a question for those who know a thing or two about track racing...

is it legal to use a 650c front wheel and a 700c rear? I have a 650 tri spoke I thought about using but am not sure if it would be allowed under the rules

thanks

Technically, under uci rules, no. in practice, will anyone bust your balls? Probably not.

Posted By: mattie davitt

Posted By: Wojciech PGot a question for those who know a thing or two about track racing...

is it legal to use a 650c front wheel and a 700c rear? I have a 650 tri spoke I thought about using but am not sure if it would be allowed under the rules

thanks

Technically, under uci rules, no. in practice, will anyone bust your balls? Probably not.

How about under USAC rules? I doubt local races are run under UCI rules.

wojciech: unless this bike was designed for a 650 front, i'd say "don't bother" - it will likely throw the handling off in a major way with that new wheel.

I agree with William on his point about using a 650 front on a bike/fork designed for a 700 wheel.

With a few rear pinch flats this season [@ FBF & PP] and in need of a new race clincher, I decided to try out a mixed 700x25 rear and 700x23 front in hopes the extra air volume might do some good. The plan was to pick up a Michelin Pro3 Race but all the shop had in a 25 was a Vittoria Open Corsa Evo CX so on it went. The tolerances were pretty tight @ the chainstays so it took a little finesse to get everything together but it all worked out.

Today's race was the maiden voyage and it felt pretty good! The extra air makes things feel a little soft while puttering around but at speed funky road surface feels better. The bike rolls fast, accelerates well and still corners like it's on rails. No negatives I can detect except maybe the small weight penalty.

Just thought I'd put this out here in case anyone else had been considering it. Perhaps this setup will save a few flats.

all good to hear - lot's of people have been talking about the net benefit of a slightly bigger tire, especially in conjunction with a wider rim

once my rear 23 wears out, i'm getting a 25 too

JP wrote a review of the Vittoria 25s somewhere.

Michelin 700x25 review

http://www.competitivecyclist.com/za/CCY?PAGE=PRODUCT_REVIEW&ARTICLE_ID=1526&QUERY=michelin&RETURN=review%20search%20for%20%27michelin%27&RETURNLINK=%2Fza%2FCCY%3FPAGE%3DPRODUCT_REVIEWS%26QUERY%3Dmichelin%26RETURN%3Dmain%20reviews%20page&PRODUCT_REVIEW_PAGE=&SEARCH_NAME=&QUERY_BRAND=

Vittoria 700x25 review

http://www.competitivecyclist.com/za/CCY?PAGE=PRODUCT_REVIEW&ARTICLE_ID=3542&QUERY=michelin&RETURN=review%20search%20for%20%27michelin%27&RETURNLINK=%2Fza%2FCCY%3FPAGE%3DPRODUCT_REVIEWS%26QUERY%3Dmichelin%26RETURN%3Dmain%20reviews%20page&PRODUCT_REVIEW_PAGE=&SEARCH_NAME=&QUERY_BRAND=

Posted By: mugwumpMichelin 700x25 review
Vittoria 700x25 review

very good. thanks for the linkage. It's nice to read that the experience is shared by others and isn't just the power of placebo (or, we're just experiencing collective hallucination.) Thanks, JP.

<blockquote>
Quick Survey: I ordered a Hed Belgian wheelset with CK r45 hubs (24 front / 28 back) from the shop where I got my IF --Signature Cycles. The mechanic there (John) has always been really great and has lots of wheel building experience so I trusted him for the job. I picked the wheels up today and they look nicely built and true, as expected.

However, once I got home, I noticed that the front wheel was a 28 spoke affair instead of the agreed upon 24. It's only 4 extra spokes (24 grams), but I'd rather get what I ordered. But, since I won't likely be able to tell the difference, except maybe that the 28 spoke version is stiffer which could be a good thing, I'm considering keeping the front wheel as is and just sending the guy responsible for the ordering (Grant Salter) some choice words.

What would you guys do?
</blockquote>

Follow-up to the above: I spoke with Grant. He acknowledged that we had spec'd a 24x28 setup --and he apologized for not getting it right. Grant said he'd be frustrated if he were in my shoes and he asked what he could do to remedy the misstep. Since I had done some research (including getting some opinions from you guys and some other friends who know more about wheels than I do) and arrived at the conclusion that I will be just as happy --or moreso-- with the 28x28 setup, I agreed to keeping the wheels as they are AND I'll be getting some extra stuff/service from the shop on my next visit.

FYI: I ended-up liking the idea of the equal spoke counts because, 1) I don't think the extra weight is an issue, 2) extra strength and durability is a good thing, and 3) these are rims designed for rough-road training and racing AND I've got 'em laced to Chris King hubs --with both the Classics and CK's own wheel-building having traditions of equal spoke counts --even higher than what I have here-- it makes good sense to go-ahead and start enjoying these beautiful wheels.

To those of you who shared your opinions on and off-line... thanks again!

So after a few sessions with a Physical Therapist, it seems I HAVE to go get pro fitted. I've been looking at Mike Sherry (Performance Labs: http://www.performancelabshc.com), Chad Butts (Endurancewerx: http://www.endurancewerx.com/bikefit.html) and also Signature Cycles (http://signaturecycles.com/document/111627). Prices respectively are $299/$200/$375.

From what I've read, Signature Cycles seems the most comprehensive and would then, in theory, yield the most informative solution. But there is a $175 difference between low and high. Anyone have experience with these guys? Any help getting pointed in the right direction would be most appreciated.

Thanks!

Eric

Once I attended a presentation made by Mike Sherry and Craig Upton (who had moved to California already) about their fitting business. What I recall is that they do bones measurements and adjust the bike according to those measurements. You have to adjust to the new position, whether you like it or not (no incremental changes), they say that's what should be good for you, according to the measurements. (I asked them about the "trial and error" process a rider could use, they said they didn't believe in it at all, measurements show what you need). I talked to several riders who had used their services, most of them were happy (those who needed a second session to correct something did not pay for it). They all said their seats had been raised a lot.

Eric,

This very subject has been addressed on the old listserv many, many times. Know that pretty much each fitter has a fit philosophy. As a result, each will probably put you in a slightly different position. Hard to say which will be more efficient or comfortable, or if you can be equally comfortable in all of them.

My first recommendation is to get an understanding of the philosophy behind each. Then, ask about follow-up visits if you believe the fit isn't working for you.

I like Mike Sherry, but I have my doubts about the Wobble-Naught system he utilizes. Read their website and also find the videos VeloNews posted.

I'm sure several members have utilized Sherry. I know that at least Josh Parker has been to Chad.

Eric-
I was fit by Craig Upton about 5-6 years ago and then re-fit on a new bike by his partner Mike Sherry within the last 6 months. In both cases I've been very happy with the results. As JP suggests, choosing a fitter is bit like choosing a religion, you either have to have some feeling that the system upon which they base their suggestions makes sense or have blind unchallenging faith. While Craig/Mike are clearly adherents of the Wobble Naught philosophy, I've found them to be less parochial in practice than in theory...in other words they will help you in making the changes they recommend incrementally and/or will spend time with little tweaks
.

Eric

I used signature cycles 2 years ago for a fit (Grant S being the fitter). Some the session was informative, such as the spin-scan analysis, however I was somewhat underwhelmed by their adherance to 'old-school' doctorine such as KOPS. My position was changed: I was lower and more upright on the bike - and this did solve some issues I had been having. Although I was a little disappointed because I am quite flexible and I didn't like the idea of being so upright.
Subsequently I have heard that their philosophy is to prioritise comfort since a lot of their clients are buying custom Serotta's, etc for fast weekend rides (no hate here ... just what I heard).

In 2010 I was re-fit by Bill Peterson, who determined that my issues were related to foot and leg length issues (later validated by MRI). He re-fit me: with cleats much further back (I am a big fan), my saddle went up 2 cm and a host of other changes. Basically a much more aggressive position, but with custom orthotics and shims. A lot more comfortable and much more effective for racing.
This was all done big bang - because I was visiting him in Tucson. But I survived the shoot-out the following morning !

I guess this is a long-way of saying that you might want to look elsewhere than Signature for a fit.

Thanks JP et al, I tend to forget about the old forum! Yes, there is a ton of great info on there. There is a ton of Sherry fandom on there as well, though I'm having my doubts about that Wobble-Naught system as there were a lot of comments that seemed to point towards a philosophy of "This is how your position should be based on your skeletal structure. This is what is best." This is also echoed by Stéphane. Although hearing from Neil makes them sound a little more warm and fuzzy.

Especially now that I'm getting old and crotchety and I know my (lack of) flexibility, among other things, is likely to be the cause of trouble. It seems that the Chad Butts philosophy of fitting might be more in line with what I need. Josh, could you please weigh in about Chad?

Thanks all for the insight!

I was fitted by Sherry a few years ago, and am very happy with the results. It was comprehensive, and his philosophy is more geared toward a racers profile on the bike. For me, he bumped my saddle up and in a little bit. It made me feel more comfortable and powerful.

I have aluminum box-rimmed wheels now. Were I to get a set of carbon tubies for racing, what would the pre-race routine be for swapping them in? Would I have to change brake pads before/after races?