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Bicycle Tech/Gear Discussion Thread

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I have a question re: electronic components

I'm at my parents in Nebraska and my dad rented me an S5 with electronic Ultegra.

When I got on it yesterday it was immediately clear that the rear derailer was not properly aligned. It was rideable, but the chain felt rough on the cassette and when I shifted into a gear smaller than about 39/19 the derailer was hitting the spokes. 

For the ride I was doing I didn't need any more than that, so it was annoying but fine.

When my dad returned it, he pointed out to them that it was not aligned, since you'd expect a $40/day rental to be properly tuned. They examined it and found a scratch on the derailer and said "this bike hit the ground" and blamed us. Which is absurd. Not only that, but they're making us pay for damages.

To make matters worse, not only are they saying I crashed when I didn't, but they are saying the whole derailer needs to be replaced - $200. Now, I've crashed hard - HARD - and not had to buy new derailers. Are these electric components more sensitive? Don't they have the same kind of disaster preventing hangers that others have? Cuz it's like - if I crashed your bike hard enough to break the derailer, why are there no other scrathes on it?


Since my dad signed a contract that said it was in good condition, we are now on the hook for the repair. It's one of those things - they're like "here's the bike it's all tuned up, this is the agreement that says you're responsible for damages..." etc. He, being a busy guy, signed it and brought it home. 

But I plan to press them on it so I at least wanna know what I'm talking about.
@ryan -- i had a very bad experience with my ultegra di2 derailer, which had led me to believe that, as of now, their build quality is perhaps a little below that of mechanical...

at riverhead a few weeks back i dropped my chain and it got lodged between my crack and my my bottom bracket, and without my forcing the issue the derailer snapped.  not at the hanger, it was at the hangar bolt which in effect snapped the derailer in two..  i have never had that happen with mechanical and was naturally upset with the build quality.  i called shimano and to be honest they were not very helpful at all.

although it's clearly preposterous what's happening with you, i will say that they seem to be under-charging you for the fix.  with parts and labor i was getting quotes at nearly double that.

good luck with this. 

@Ryan - They are no more sensitive than mechanical. Remember the crash on 9W I had where my bike bounced down the road ? Big scrapes on the derailleur, a torn jockey wheel !! and a bent hanger - but the derailleur was operationally perfect.
When setting them up - one still needs to manually adjust the limit screws (in fact you need to back the limit off more than on mechanical since the derailleur slightly overshifts and then corrects - a design feature for crisp shifting, but I digress).
This sounds like a case of the derailleur hanger being bent when you rented the bike. To prove the derailleur is OK, ask them to take it off that bike and stick it on another.

Of course don't forget the hanger is a feature of the frame not the derailleur. Most bikes have an alloy one that bend 'easily'. Some people switch them out for stiffer stainless steel to improve shifting and some frames do not have replaceable hangers at all !

Jeff has broken enough Cervelo's to be considered our resident expert on Cervelo failings - he may be able to advise further.

Do not admit liability - do not pay.
Ryan, my understanding is that the Di2 stuff has an auto protect feature built in to the rear. It automatically recesses in the event of impact, or something. Don't know how that affects you exactly, but it might take some steam out of the crash theory. Any chance your dad put weight on it and bent it when loading it into the car? That's a pretty common mistake for non-riders, and might explain why no other damage was visible.
Joaquin anything's possible but my dad's actually a pretty experienced rider himself and I seriously doubt he'd set the bike down on the drive side. He may have even had it on his roof rack. I'll ask him though.

I mean, we're screwed, probably, but I wasn't there when they charged him so I feel like they may back down if they feel they are up against someone with a little more experience.

At any rate, its retarded business practice. We've rented from them many times, both me and my brother when we visit - so they're basically alienating a whole family of idiots who spend way too much $$ on bike crap! 
Ryan

At the very least is there some sort of wear and tear proviso in the contract, such that normal 'use' and associated wear is acceptable?  You just mentioned that the derailer is scratched.  If it is scratched, that's bikes.  It happens.  Like cable rub or chips on the paint from stones coming of the ground as you ride.  If there is no other damage, their claim of a 'crash' is unfounded.

Also, as mentioned above, if the derailer is just needing alignment, what are they charging you for?  Is it broken or not?  Cosmetic shit on the outside doesn't count.

at riverhead a few weeks back i dropped my chain and it got lodged between my crack and my my bottom bracket, and without my forcing the issue the derailer snapped.  
mark, that sounds terrifying.  i'm not a fit expert, but maybe next time try to keep your crack a little further away from the bottom bracket.  sorry to butt in.  just being cheeky.
Ryan,
The electronic stuff allows for micro adjustments. If the der gets bumped really hard OR someone holds the reset button those micro adjustments get wiped and the system goes back to its default.

Most likely it just wasn't micro adjusted properly and there was a scratch somewhere - totally unrelated but a bullshit move for the rental agency.

If it wasn't you Id have suggested your wheel wasn't aligned (its happened to me) properly.
One other thing to use in your discussions with them is that if they are charging you $200 to replace the derailleur then you should be entitled to the old one coming off. Otherwise they are better than whole with a new and old derailleur. You can then sell the old one yourself to recoup some of what you are out. Otherwise, I agree with you. If there are no other signs of crash damage then that claim is faulty and they'd be hard pressed to say a scratch isn't normal wear and tear. Have them email you a picture of the damage.
Pay with a credit card? Take it up with the card company. They'll get your back.
Pay with a credit card? Take it up with the card company. They'll get your back.
Exactly. Put them on the treadmill of having to deal with the card company. Dispute the charge: in the dispute description, claim fraud, document all their missteps, point out mitigating language in the contract, etc. You are, in fact, being defrauded.

Go on yelp and tear them a new one. In fact, post a link to their yelp page here. Some folks might be inspired to give a little feedback.

Comment on their facebook page.

Report them to the BBB.

Threaten them with small claims court.

Most importantly, if sweet talking them and being a nice guy doesn't work, notify them of your intention to do all of the above if they don't stop trying to shake you down.
I bring ye...the elf

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/842248593/roll-out-the-elf-to-your-city

Cool as the Elf is -- sadly -- I can't see anything like that without thinking of the South Park episode that came out right around the initial press conference for the Segway.

just trued my internal nipple weirdo-wheels for the first time.  please forgive me in advance for bringing down the race when my wheel explodes in a shower of spokes
I hate those wheels....and I mean I HATE those wheels.  I hate them like they were alive and somehow wronged me in a malicious way.  Weird no ?
twoyacks said:
I hate those wheels....and I mean I HATE those wheels.  I hate them like they were alive and somehow wronged me in a malicious way.  Weird no ?
Yaks you are so far down the "strange" spectrum that you'd have to go suit & tie to get weird.  Just sayin.

sorry, chris . . . i hate to get on the bully bandwagon that jules is driving . . . but that was very funny
Wagon Driver

image
those wagon wheels look just like Brendan's bicycle wheels....hate is beginning to bubble !!!
I'm toying with the idea of a new CX bike and would like to open up a discussion/ get some thoughts about the following options:

I am considering the Van Dessel Gin & Trombones with Rival vs. the Cannondale SuperX with Rival. They retail for about the same, we get a discount on both and they are well regarded race machines. 

I figure I can't go wrong with either bike, but wonder how they differ much in terms of handling. I've read online reviews that like both bikes. The impression I get is that the Cannondale is lighter and smoother but the G&T handles tighter. None of the reviews compare them head to head, so I don't know if this holds true. Anyone with experience on either than could throw in their two cents?


Perlberg has both. I think the gin is great handling.
I'd focus on differences in geometry. And availability.
PatrickG said:
I'm toying with the idea of a new CX bike and would like to open up a discussion/ get some thoughts about the following options:

I am considering the Van Dessel Gin & Trombones with Rival vs. the Cannondale SuperX with Rival. They retail for about the same, we get a discount on both and they are well regarded race machines. 

I figure I can't go wrong with either bike, but wonder how they differ much in terms of handling. I've read online reviews that like both bikes. The impression I get is that the Cannondale is lighter and smoother but the G&T handles tighter. None of the reviews compare them head to head, so I don't know if this holds true. Anyone with experience on either than could throw in their two cents?


not to step on toes, but 2013 superXs are on closeout, so you should be able to get a sweetheart deal.
I'm sure this has been mentioned/discussed before but a quick search on this forum didn't bring up much of use.

Just got some new wheels for a road bike (not 'cross).  They are tubeless and inner tube compatible.  I can choose.  All my other wheels are clincher, which I like because I can change an inner tube, without levers, in 3 minutes flat.  I buy my tubes in bulk from Nashbar so they are $7 each for the weight weeny ones I like (75g).  Hence, price and weight are not a concern.  I like to run high pressure in my tyres (120-135 psi depending on what the tyre will let me do) and have no interest in experimenting at 84psi to get a "better ride feel".

Is there any real need for me to bother trying tubeless?  I have come across a few pros vs cons articles and the general gist is that tubeless can be lower pressure, which I would only really appreciate when racing in the wet, which is something I would be interested in using these wheels for.  Apparently they tend to be more resistant to punctures.  If you get a puncture and the sealant does the job of fixing it, is that job done, or is that a stop-gap until I get home at the end of the ride?

Looking for thoughts and experience from others, right now I am probably 60:40 for going with tubes. 
Adam,
I've written on this topic several times.  Poke around some more.

Obviously, you're not interested in going fast or getting good traction.  

If the sealant works, you likely won't know it's happening.  If you do, and the sealant closes the hole before the tire gets too soft, you only need to put in more air at home.


JP- you response was erroneous.  I did say that good traction is something I would appreciate when riding in the wet.  Obviously, you're not interested in reading posts!

About the going fast, I assume you are referring to the pressure/rolling resistance/deformation/speed "data" which is out there and has been written on a million times.  On this, your supposition is correct.  I don't care and con't be bothered.  I just pump up to what the casing says is good.  Maybe I will lose two watts.

Good that you can just let the sealant do its thing though, that's a plus.
Found your previous review now....
http://www.competitivecyclist.com/za/CCY?PAGE=PRODUCT_REVIEW&ARTICLE_ID=3188&QUERY=tubeless&RETURN=review search for 'tubeless'&RETURNLINK=/za/CCY?PAGE=PRODUCT_REVIEWS&QUERY=tubeless&RETURN=main reviews page&PRODUCT_REVIEW_PAGE=&SEARCH_NAME=&QUERY_BRAND=
There are some new tubeless tires on the market that purport to address some of the shortfalls of the first gen stuff. The new Bontragers have a nice shape and less butyl stiffness, relying instead on sealant to retain air. Rolling resistance is claimed to be low. The new Schwalbe Ultremos make similar claims and look pretty nice.

I personally love the way tubeless feels at low pressures, but I still mix in traditional tube setups sometimes just for sheer convenience. Learning the tips and tricks for mounting (extensively discussed on Velonews.com) helps, and the process is getting pretty equivalent.
Adam said:

JP- you response was erroneous.  I did say that good traction is something I would appreciate when riding in the wet.  Obviously, you're not interested in reading posts!

About the going fast, I assume you are referring to the pressure/rolling resistance/deformation/speed "data" which is out there and has been written on a million times.  On this, your supposition is correct.  I don't care and con't be bothered.  I just pump up to what the casing says is good.  Maybe I will lose two watts.

Good that you can just let the sealant do its thing though, that's a plus.
I read your post.   Traction is always important, even in the dry.  And as you probably do most of your riding in the dry, it is arguably more important than in the wet.

You could be looking at over 2w per tire--and that's on an aluminum drum roller.  On the road, it would be much more.  
I've been running tubeless for a couple of years now. I used to race on them, but more recently I use them for my training needs, especially during winter rides when the road is full of debris. The sealant does a great job of taking care of the little punctures and no pinch flatting from hidden potholes and such. They're good for the beater/commuter too.

@Adam, it's a pain in the ass to setup and maintain, but it's kind of cool if you have the patience and the means. IMO, tubeless is certainly not better than alternatives, especially tubulars when it comes to racing, but it's not that bad either... just a pain in the ass and a little messy.