Jul 03, 2013 at 03:00 PM
In Print: Articles of Interest
Jul 03, 2013 at 03:21 PM
Hmm. I don't actually know how much of this is going on, but I have to say, if it is going on a lot, I don't think his point is all that controversial. In fact, if indeed we are doing this, I'd have to agree it's not terribly sporting.Phillip Maronilla said:
Personally, I've always been slightly uncomfortable with the number we put in some races, even if they do all finish. Without making a final judgement, I think its important for us to consider this issue and not just dismiss it.
Jul 03, 2013 at 03:39 PM
@Ryan - I heard grumbling right before the start of the last two Cat 4 races about the number of KCCs. And @Brendan's video caught a Foundation guy commenting about it as well during last Saturday's race.
I believe CRCA has a cap on how large a team can be at their races.
Having said that, it's comforting to know i have a lot of teammates in the peloton when I'm in it.
Jul 03, 2013 at 04:16 PM
In the 4s, we each do a fair amount of work...we have guys in the breaks, attacking, chasing, sprinting, leading out, KOMing all through the race. If a large portion of us dropped out, I'd say he has a point, but how many of us actually DNF? I think 2 weekends ago I may have been the only Kissena Cat4 that DNFed (and definitely not intentional). Last week none or one?
I mean on one hand, yeah, that sucks if you've got 3 guys on your team and you can't pull the same moves as Kissena and be more selective. But on the other, if they had 15 guys in the field they sure as hell would be doing the same.
I mean on one hand, yeah, that sucks if you've got 3 guys on your team and you can't pull the same moves as Kissena and be more selective. But on the other, if they had 15 guys in the field they sure as hell would be doing the same.
Jul 03, 2013 at 04:24 PM
It is my observation that there have been plenty of years when Kissena had a similar number of riders in the cat IV field and failed to have any results. This situation will not last forever, as the successful people will be forced to upgrade. I would suggest weathering this tempest (in a teapot) and avoid any criticism of sandbagging. I might also suggest that the Kissena riders avoid negative racing - that is aggressive blocking efforts for teammates in a break. Attacking and leadouts are great. Spreading 5 guys across the front of the field is not so great. I'm not making accusations, just suggesting that such negative racing be avoided.
Jul 03, 2013 at 04:29 PM
@Ryan has a valid point although I'm not sure what the right answer is for it, especially when the accusation is baseless; we blew guys out when we were racing with only four teammates and we are blowing the same number out now.
We worked in every break I find it hard to agree with the "unsportsmanlike" accusation.
Here is an email exchange I had with Charlie on this topic in 2011...
May 13 2011
Hi (Charlie)
Love the races, really appreciate all the work that goes into running them.
Why no limit on team size within a field?
~20 guys from one team in a single field seems a bit much, no?
Jules
Love the races, really appreciate all the work that goes into running them.
Why no limit on team size within a field?
~20 guys from one team in a single field seems a bit much, no?
Jules
(Kissena had 16 or 17 riders in that field)
(From Charlie)
Got it. A couple of things to consider:
1. "Team Racing" in lower categories like the Cat 4's is not as well organized as in say a Pro/1-2 race. A lot of this has to do with the rider's ability. In the case of Kissena, while they do have some strong Cat 4's for sure, many of their Cat 4's are not nearly as strong and often have a difficult time just finishing let alone chasing breakaways or giving leadouts. A lot of this has to do with the idea of what Kissena stands for. Kissena is a "club" and not a team which means it's open to riders of all abilities. That was the idea that Al Toefield had when he founded the club in 1963.
2. As the host team, it would be difficult to exclude Kissena members from their own race. "The race is promoted by Kissena but only 'x' amount of Kissena riders can enter" would not go over well with the membership.
Hope that answers your questions.
Charlie Issendorf
Race Director
Kissena Cycling Club
Jul 03, 2013 at 04:36 PM
It sounds like there may be a perception that guys are DNFing when actually they are blowing themselves out after a lead out, or choosing not to mix it up in the shitshow dangerous sprint. If that's the case, then that's just lack of understanding the race and there's not much we can do about it. I don't think we should worry about those folks.
But if someone is just straight up bothered by us having 20 guys, well, maybe that makes some sense. Charlie's answer is persuasive. But I have to admit if I were on another team (or club, whatever) I would think it was a bit lame that we've got 20 guys in a field. Like Jules I'm not sure what we can do about that, I guess I'm just saying I kind of understand where people are coming from. If nothing else "fuck this guy" is the wrong answer.
Jul 03, 2013 at 04:58 PM
i can definitely see why people would be pissed, especially if the perception is that we are shelling out guys during lead-outs and such and those guys are then just pulling out.
i am not sure who mentioned it, but before saturday's race i heard talk of splitting the kissenas into groups, to race against one another in the same field. on the one hand that could be a bit goofy, but on the other it would A) achieve a leveling of the playing field as far as other teams are concerned;
allow more people to be active in the race (with 20 people, there are never going to be enough roles -- sweeper, lead-out, sprinter -- to go around); C) by extension of B, probably raise the game of the 4s overall because everyone is learning a role or roles.
though it worth mentioning at least (or rather, thought it worth regurgitating an idea i heard a the weekend).
i am not sure who mentioned it, but before saturday's race i heard talk of splitting the kissenas into groups, to race against one another in the same field. on the one hand that could be a bit goofy, but on the other it would A) achieve a leveling of the playing field as far as other teams are concerned;
allow more people to be active in the race (with 20 people, there are never going to be enough roles -- sweeper, lead-out, sprinter -- to go around); C) by extension of B, probably raise the game of the 4s overall because everyone is learning a role or roles. though it worth mentioning at least (or rather, thought it worth regurgitating an idea i heard a the weekend).
Jul 03, 2013 at 05:06 PM
@Mark that is what CRCA is. It is one club filled with "sub teams" who race against one another in "closed" races, ie: you have to be a club member to participate - and membership is not (and has not always been) open to all.
Kissena stands at the other end of the spectrum; we run "open" races and we do not have subteams. The "Kissena Vibe" that we are all so proud of stems from that because subteams lead to exclusivity.
There is a natural cadence to this; people who really yearn for the exclusivity will find their way (paging Mr. but hopefully they will think fondly on their Kissena years.
but hopefully they will think fondly on their Kissena years.Overall I think it would be reasonable to put a 10 rider per team cap on the local park races - but that is for Charlie to decide...
Jul 03, 2013 at 05:12 PM
i am not suggesting sub-teams. just an informal split of riders where we have a field of say 10+ kissenas.
Jul 03, 2013 at 05:16 PM
@Mark it amounts to the same thing internal to the club and doesn't address the issue of how we appear to our competitors.
The best use of sub teams is for something like the Ronde van Millbrooke or our off season training/talisman rides.
Speaking of which, who has them?
Jul 03, 2013 at 05:16 PM
95% of cat IV prospect races end in a sprint. Foundation was the only team to put together a lead out and Brendan beat them after being in breaks and bridging to breaks all day. Kissena is the best thing to happen to that field. If I were not on Kissena, I would look to get in a break with a Kissena rider. The IV field would suck without us animating. There would be bunch sprints and most of the field would have fresh legs coming into the finale = crashes. I will tell you what is not very "sporting" sitting in all day and then trying to get position in the sprint. I suspect that the guy who wrote the anonymous post was not in one break last weekend. I would not respond to that "anonymous" poster until he includes his name and explains exactly how he was impacted by our teams size and tactics. That guy needs to train harder and race smarter and spend less time complaining (anonymously) on forums.
Jul 03, 2013 at 05:26 PM
Axis, Deno's and Braur have big teams in the masters field. They take advantage of their numbers. If I watch Axis, they will send 2 or 3 guys up the road and the 1st guy goes full gas to launch the move and then he drifts back to the field. Nobody complains when they go with those moves and Axis blocks for it. It's always the guys who never hit the wind and then get left behind by the break who complain.
Jul 03, 2013 at 05:29 PM
Jul 03, 2013 at 05:30 PM
I think we should brush off such comments. More importantly, stop reading NYVelocity. The site exists to give otherwise decent people the outlet to be the assholes they always wanted to be in high school. It's ugly and stupid and you're better off wasting your time reading something better.
Looking at Brendan's footage, he was in great position all day, he rode hard, rode smart, and is a worthy winner. Several of the other guys who finished in the top ten did nothing until the final miles--I don't think anyone suggests that their rides weren't sporting.
One way to respond to a bigger team, is bring more teammates to the race. Or start attacking earlier. Or figure out how to take advantage of the size of the bigger team.
in the masters category, the club that is now brauer/mick racing used to put as many people in the races and I never heard a complaint about it from others.
As for the DNF'ing, that's a non-complaint if I ever saw one. They're making the race hard for everyone, good riders should take advantage of that. That someone got dropped because he couldn't sit in when someone else was killing it at the front is nobody's fault but the dropped person's. The fast riders should be thanking Kissena for toughening up the race.
Jul 03, 2013 at 05:46 PM
Agreed, I was being an internet tough guy. I redact my statement and will commence eating my Cheetos in silence.Ryan J said:If nothing else "fuck this guy" is the wrong answer.
Jul 03, 2013 at 05:58 PM
i know, i know: JP said not to look at the site. but i did, and saw this. right on, michele.
Jul 03, 2013 at 06:09 PM
Wonder who Michele is...
...but in any case, I'm just going to go out there and race.
...but in any case, I'm just going to go out there and race.
Jul 03, 2013 at 06:23 PM
i love this development.
NYVelocity.com trolls would complain about anything. A few years back they used to complain that Kissena riders would chase their own teammates down, and never making any real splash in the races.
I think in the next race if somebody complains about too many Kissenas in our races, just remind them that these are our club races, and unlike CRCA we run our races as open races for everybody to race...they're welcome to not race our races.
NYVelocity.com trolls would complain about anything. A few years back they used to complain that Kissena riders would chase their own teammates down, and never making any real splash in the races.
I think in the next race if somebody complains about too many Kissenas in our races, just remind them that these are our club races, and unlike CRCA we run our races as open races for everybody to race...they're welcome to not race our races.
Jul 03, 2013 at 07:18 PM
[spoiler]
Looks at shoes and whistles...
Looks at shoes and whistles...
Jul 03, 2013 at 07:58 PM
Make the power data public.
"...the riders and coaches all know this already - it's not as though Contador will be suddenly enlightened when he discovers that Froome is producing 6 W/kg to ride away from him - he knew it already, it's just that we didn't..."
Jul 05, 2013 at 04:27 PM
Jul 05, 2013 at 05:09 PM
How bout this girl....dropped out of the sport a few years ago with anorexia issues....but she is back and dropping Evie Stevens and Marianne Vos in the mtns. She makes Froome look fat
Jul 08, 2013 at 01:42 PM
So here's what I don't get, why does a potential GC contender waste energy "trying to get into a breakaway?" I mean, I realize he's plan B to Evans' plan A, but surely they have other riders more suited to blowing apart your legs/lungs trying to get into a breakaway?
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/battling-van-garderen-hopeful-of-a-resurgence
Jul 08, 2013 at 01:56 PM
Did you see how far back he was?Marc Bertucco said:
So here's what I don't get, why does a potential GC contender waste energy "trying to get into a breakaway?" I mean, I realize he's plan B to Evans' plan A, but surely they have other riders more suited to blowing apart your legs/lungs trying to get into a breakaway?
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/battling-van-garderen-hopeful-of-a-resurgence
Jul 08, 2013 at 01:57 PM
For those who want to tell the world about good/neutral/bad spots for riding in NYC's roads, put them on the NY Times' interactive map
Jul 08, 2013 at 01:59 PM
Brooklyn Bridge comments spot on...
Jul 08, 2013 at 02:01 PM
Oh...I thought he was referring to his efforts on the first day of the mountains...mugwump said:Did you see how far back he was?Marc Bertucco said:
So here's what I don't get, why does a potential GC contender waste energy "trying to get into a breakaway?" I mean, I realize he's plan B to Evans' plan A, but surely they have other riders more suited to blowing apart your legs/lungs trying to get into a breakaway?
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/battling-van-garderen-hopeful-of-a-resurgence
Jul 08, 2013 at 02:14 PM
I wonder if the map could help move things. for example, pointing out how police precincts on bike paths routinely have parked cars blocking the paths. or pointing out where there's lots of speeding.Jules said:Brooklyn Bridge comments spot on...
Jul 08, 2013 at 02:31 PM