My definition of tempo (lifted from Carmichael Training Systems) is 90%-95% of the average wattage during my 30-minute field test.

So if I can do 295 watts for 30 minutes, my tempo range would be 265w-280w. So it's basically juuust sub-threshold. I believe Allen/Coggan call it "sweet spot" in their book Training and Racing With a Power Meter. I can hold tempo for about an hour after about early-March.

Further, I use what CTS refers to as "steady state" to mean 95%-100% of my 30-minute tt. So if I can do 295 watts for 30 minutes, my steady-state range would be 280w-295w. So it's basically juuust super-threshold. Steady states are generally only about 5-20 minutes long depending on the workout.

The idea of focusing on these ranges is to attack your FTP from below and above, theoretically raising it in the process.

NOTE: Literally everyone in the club will disagree with what I've just written.

Thanks. It's Eric's comment ("ride the whole thing at tempo ") that triggered my question. A 30-minute field test is too long for me, so I just do a MAP ramp test when I feel like seeing some numbers, which has not happened recently.

I'm glad that Jeffrey posted the percentages, because obviously all zones are individual. If I went out and did "tempo" with him, I'd actually be at or above my threshold and with the power spiking humps bumps and lumps on the open road, I'd be extra toasty crispy sooner than later. And even if I "sit in," hoping to save 30% energy, how many guys on our club insist on painting the white line on the right side of the road when pulling killing off most of your drafting ability depending on the direction of the wind? (P.S. I'm not saying we can or should take up a whole lane echeloning on group rides, but it would be nice if the guy in first position gave the guys in back a little breathing room)

I'm not saying don't go on a "tempo" group ride this weekend, but just be aware that the more variables you throw into the equation (people, road conditions, etc), the less control you will have over your own personal experience. Which is fine. Or not. You decide.

Or a simpler way to think of it is that threshold is the maximum you can put out for an hour, tempo is the max you can put out for two to three hours, endurance is the max you can put out for four hours or more. So, high tempo is the max for 61 to 120 minutes, low tempo is 181-239. middle tempo is 121-180.

If you go out and ride steady but as hard as you can for two and a half hours and then finish totally empty, you should have put out your middle tempo.

To put together what Jeff and Eric wrote, getting better at sub threshold riding, what I think Carmichael or his ghostwriter called the "slow drain," is important because this is where you want to be for as long as possible so that you're as fresh as possible to put in or go with the winning effort. So going out and riding long and steady hard with super-hard efforts mixed in, is a good way to mimic racing.

@Marc: Exactly right. There are ways to feather tempo while behind someone faster, but it's not a trivial task. It certainly helps if the fast guy is a mindful host. And when it comes to max efforts, you just have to accept that separations occur and have a plan to get back together when the efforts are done if people get far apart.

@JP: One of the limitations of CTS, I've always thought, is its negligence of what you call "low tempo."

well, to defend myself and tempo comment refers to another thread on PP Morning Training...

the idea is to set a steady pace above your endurance pace. You have to work a little to maintain tempo, but you should not get cooked doing it. You try to maintain an even output, so uphill is slower than downhill where you are trying to leep the same effort going. I'd say tempo is the pace you could ride for two hours. At that point, you will be a bit cooked.

Now, all I am advocating is that the tempo be ridden for about 35 minutes accroding to Jeff's workout. The idea being to keep the tempo as the floor of the workout (think of it as sitting in effort for a non-surgy race) and go above it a few times to simulate attacks. Coming back to a tempo base is closer to race conditions and teaches the body to recover.


To summarize - tempo hurts a little bit, but takes a long time to make you toasty. To me, Jeff's numbers are much closer to threshold, i.e., that's why he's referring to Coggan's sweet spot training. I am suggesting a bit below that with the efforts way above it.

As an example of pacing - in Prospect Park, if I ride tempo, I will average around 240w (low end of tempo, but with the downhill, its too easy to go over into threshold if you push it more), which equates to around a 20mph average with 24mph on the top, 30mph down the hill and about 22mph on the bottom. The hill is slow at around 15mph. Here is a link to such a ride I did with a bunch of teammates on May 1:

http://tpks.ws/1INFuqsp

The first hour was tempo and then I just rode.

Eric, no need to defend yourself! Actually, I think your interpretation of "tempo" is the common one when used in the expression "tempo ride". My problem was to reconcile this usage and Jeffrey's percentages, which are too high to be sustained for a whole ride.

Yes, I have a narrow view of "tempo," which completely excludes "low tempo." I think most would just call it "high tempo" or "sweet spot." I honestly just do not know how to use low tempo, except for, as Eric suggests, over-unders. I suspect I do not use this range sufficiently to my advantage. Again, I consider it a shortcoming of the CTS system (which I did for a year a couple years ago).

However, there are whole debates on the merits of extended, slow-burn low tempo versus favoring endurance miles and shorter sets of sweet spot/high tempo, particularly for cyclists who do not train 15 hours a week.

I have lots of problems with some of the stuff CTS prescribes, no small part is they have some pretty poor explanations.

With the loose zones I laid out, I think it not so much CTS (their influence is limited ot the term "slow drain") but more along Frank Overton's Sweet Spot idea, which, if nothing else is about maximizing fatigue for the given time you have to train (Frank would probably call it "maximizing adaptations"). If your racing is never more than three hours, you don't need to be riding for more than three. However, riding yourself till your super-tired

I think we should get away from numbers for a bit. We ride because it's fun, fast, challenging, and more. The weekend gives us more time to ride than we can generally allow during the week, and getting out, doing something different, and not relying on meters so much, is a great thing.

Though I will be riding at a steady 3.73 w/kg for all of sunday, going up to 5w/kg on the hills and down to 3w/kg for the descents. ;) Sit on, trade pulls, whatever. I promise the roads will be different, interesting, and I'm 99% certain you'll have fun. And you'll be tired at the end.

Ditto

For those wanting something non-interavally, Joe and I are meeting at 9 @ GWB to do Alpine past Nyack to Herald/Lake roads back to the hillside switchbacks, tweed to piermont and probably the low road home. Good prep for Housatonic if you're going (not my giant carcass).

Jeff, is that on Saturday or Sunday? It's not clear because on this thread Jeffrey is talking about a Saturday ride and JP about a Sunday ride...

Sorry, I'm talking about tomorrow, Saturday, for the above. I'll be doing JP's ride on Sunday as well.

I have prizes for KOM tomorrow. One for alpine, one for the switchbacks, and one for whichever hill we tackle on the way home. Don't get too excited, they were free. And craptacular.

Why don't you just give them to Joe now?

Ha. Ok. Joe, save some room in your jersey. I'll give then to you at gwb. They're lead weights.

actualol

The answer you have been waiting for all day is in. NO, not how Kissena did at an actual race (watermelon?). Who won the KOM prizes today and what exactly were they? See attached photo. I hope it actually allows me to attach something this time. Otherwise you will have to wait until I figure it out.....

Anyway, Joe, Ryan, David, and Konrad all turned up and we had nice 80 miler with some decent hills. Picked up a nice Hudson rider along the way. See you again tomorrow!

And of course it didn't work. I'll try it one more time.

SUCCESS! Whatever, it's sideways and gigantic, but you get the point. I'll try to dig up some prizes for tomorrow as well. Probably won't be this cool though.

Great group ride Mr Softee was indeed hooking up the prizes today! But the mystery is what was the third and final prize?

Kudos on the pinky ringery. Correct finger choice. Super pro.

Also, back to the topic at hand. I'll be at the Brooklyn Bridge from 8-8:05 tomorrow if anyone wants to caravan up to JP's ride.

Ha, I really didn't earn it, Joe gave me one for trying hard. By the way, I didn't leave the club - but I desperately need some summer clothing!

@Jeff White

I will try to be there, will text you in the AM if I'm coming. If you don't hear from me, I'm still sleeping.

I'll be at BB at 8.

Ride Report:

Marc Bertuco won the Sour Patch Kid KOM

Ryan Johnston "had a mechanical" and "got lost" before the biggest most epic KOM climb ever. I won it but then they all told me it didn't count because Ryan wasn't there. Whatever. Owens: you sill owe me my prize, I want that spider ring!

Seriously though, great ride, cool route. Ryan, Jeff, Jeff, JP, Marc, Norm, Stephane, Gideon and myself. Good times.

You forgot to mention that Norm won the intermediate KOM (the one before the big-epic KOM).

And, of course, my victory counts since everyone was there (nevermind that JP only told me about it as we approached).

It was a fun route indeed! Enjoyed it immensely!

Although I'm enjoying the sour fruits (is there a better candy than sour patch kids?) of my one KOM victory (the shortest/easiest KOM of the ride) today, I feel like I should point out that JP was basically eliminated from the competitions because he was riding in the wind at the front all day. Now, it's his own fault for taking us on a back-roads route with so many turns and so unfamiliar to us all that we mostly had to follow, but still. Next time, more advance notice before the KOM climbs--this way we can fight for position leading into the climb like the pros do in the spring classics.

I like how basically at this point every single rise over 3% that lasts for half a KM is a "KOM"

Actually after we broke off with the upper Manhattan crew I won a couple of "hot spot" sprints. Basically, I started sprinting, yelled "hot spot!", looked back, and, seeing that I had "won," commenced my victory salute. Usually no one was paying attention, they were casually just talking amongst themselves, which told me it was a great "move" because I'd surprised them by lighting them up when they least expected it.

Oh, and the short cobblestone section near Union Square was Paris Roubaix, and at some point Mike said something about have "won" the group ride.

In all seriousness, it was lots of fun. Thanks to JP for leading it. Just over 98 miles for me, according to Garmin.