@dstokes, thank you.  a magnificent diagram is precisely what i was hoping to elicit  lovely refresher of my one terrible run-in with physics in high school.

Ryan J said:

I never understand why people think hill repeats on river road are a good way to train for races with 20 min plus climbs.

My experience is that climbing comes down to strength to weight, period. Train for the amount of time you want the climb to take on any road where you maintain a steady effort. If you are fast for 20 min on a flat road, you'll be fast on a climb. Or, as fast as you can be at your size.

My evidence: this past February when we out to California I smashed my power records on every one of the climbs we did - and I did it after doing nothing but suffering on the trainer and in the park for 4 months. And I was very light.

I agree that Alpine repeats, or the like, are not the ideal regimen for training for big climbs, for the reasons you cite, but they're not so very terrible either.  This past summer I rode a seven-day stage race from Geneva to Nice that included eight to twelve thousand feet of climbing per day, including a time trial on Bonnette that was for me a two plus hour climb.  Needless to say, training for this adventure in these parts was a challenge.  Six Gaps was a confidence builder and, for repeats, nothing in the area can beat Greylock.  Bear Mountain is a good candidate, but you burn up 100 miles on the to and from (if you drive, you might as well drive up to Greylock, which, as French Alp substitutes go, is far superior to BM).  So my bread and butter was Alpine repeats.  In theory, one could calculate the average power put out in an hour-long climb, and then maintain that power for an hour on the flats.  That's a great idea, and I can believe you got great results, but doing that is not the same as climbing for an hour either, as you're engaging your muscles differently.  Also, doing Alpine repeats, and I mean a lot of them in one session, one develops a kind of metronomic climbing rythym that is helpful on a long climb.  And then there are the out of the saddle Alpine repeats that a great for developing, well, out of the saddle climbing, which, even if you are not an out-of-the-saddle guy or gal, is a great posture to switch to now and then on a very long climb.  Not so easy to do that hammering on the flats,   What's a lot of Alpine repeats?  I started at 10, moved up to 20-25 once every other week for two months, then did 30 and 40 for my final two sessions.  Trust me, you do 40 repeats on Alpine and you will have a very good idea of what the 5600 foot climb up the Bonnette will be like.

Gwynna Smith said:

@Christopher, what is your typical descent time (recovery period)? Just wondering about the intervals.

3-4 minutes to roll down to the parking lot, turn around, chat with Suzanne, the ranger lady who yells at you for exceeding the 10 mph speed limit, and head back up hill.  BTW, it's 1.3 miles fro Suzanne's booth to the police station driveway, 400 feet elevation gain.

@Christopher - You did 40 repeats of Alpine in one session? How long did that take?

12 hours all in, which included the 25 miles each way from Brooklyn (and an hour for an enormous lunch at The Market between repeats 32 and the final 8).  156 miles, 16,000+ feet of climbing.  Yeah, it was kinda stoopit.  Also kinda funny in a ridiculously adolescent way.  And the prospect of seven days in the Alps was less terrifying having done it.

That sounds like a heck of a stage race. What's the name of the race? We're you riding for yourself or on a team?

Sorry @Christopher that was sort of a leading question; impolite on my part.

Meh, I'm sticking to my guns: lose weight and increase your threshold and you'll climb better - guaranteed.

Ryan J said:

Meh, I'm sticking to my guns: lose weight and increase your threshold and you'll climb better - guaranteed.

This.

Re faster not farther: point taken.

I'm growing more interested in HRV (heart rate variability) testing as an indicator of cumulative training load and or as a signal for a recovery dose.

Looks like some it's past the "hokum" stage...

Oh my god...did you just say you want to train with h.r. ?  The ludicrous carbon epiphany can't be far behind.  You may need a professional deprogrammer for that though as you are clearly at the fifth level.  Any violent withdrawal could lead to a complete breakdown and possibly death....

Hey guys, I've been curious to see how some of the more experienced guys train during cross season, or how somebody who focuses on cross trains vs. somebody who... I dunno, focuses less on cross.

@Konrad it sounds like you might be in a bit of a hole, but you are young and healthy so do not despair.

I've added a run once a week to my workouts (followed by some weights). I'm wondering if anyone adds runs (or other workouts) to TP/GC to account for the training stress of the run in their overall performance manager chart. If you do add the run, how do you approximate the TSS/Bikescore for the run?

umm, for bike purposes, the Bikescore should be about bikes. I know that running adds stress, but there is no real way of approximating for bike purposes. That is the takeaway I have from mind numbing conversations about the subject.

@Gwynna however you measure it (blood lactate or power) your "threshold" is your MAXIMUM for an hour. So yeah, either you've been estimating/testing it wrong or your data from Saturday is somehow corrupt. My hunch is that it is the first; testing on the trainer isn't always a good indication of what you can do on the road.

You can read back in this thread for the various protocols people use (5 & 20, Monod, Carmichael... Or the Naguib Special - 60 minutes all out) but the bottom line is to be consistent in what you test so that you can train in productive zones.

Jules said:

@Gwynna however you measure it (blood lactate or power) your "threshold" is your MAXIMUM for an hour. So yeah, either you've been estimating/testing it wrong or your data from Saturday is somehow corrupt. My hunch is that it is the first; testing on the trainer isn't always a good indication of what you can do on the road.

I think that's true - but I also think the trainer is the best indication of how strong you actually are. It's also the most controlled so it's better for tracking progress. On the road it's easy to manipulate your numbers by taking advantage of undulations. But the trainer won't lie.

Trainer needs adequate cooling. Get that and once you're used to the feel its pretty similar to the road. If you had a 30minute hill to climb. Otherwise the variable nature of the outside has you going a bit up or down. But the real takeaway is cooling.

I think @Eric is referring to cooling of the athlete on the trainer, not the trainer itself.  Once you overheat it is GAME OVER.

While I can't imagine ever doing the same power on the trainer as on the road, I would definitely agree with the cooling advice. I use two powerful fans and insulated bottles with ice-cold drink in them when doing hard stuff on the trainer.

For all-out efforts on the trainer, I add a cooling vest to the other tricks.

@Gwynna the literarture is pretty clear on the deleterious consequences of your core heating too much; to the point where people have been experimenting with slamming a slushie prior to a time trial, or racing with a stocking full of ice stuffed into their skinsuts...

Good to know there's a use for my used nylons.