Oct 14, 2013 at 09:23 PM
Keep in mind ingesting cold water is not always the same as keeping cool. Hyponutremia is not your friend.
Training to Race: Faster, Stronger, Awesomer
Oct 15, 2013 at 01:55 AM
Jules said:@Gwynna the literarture is pretty clear on the deleterious consequences of your core heating too much; to the point where people have been experimenting with slamming a slushie prior to a time trial, or racing with a stocking full of ice stuffed into their skinsuts...Yes. In fact didn't Allen Lim attempt to explain Floyd Landis' winning performance on the (in)famous 2006 TDF stage win by suggesting it was entirely the result of cooling during the stage? ] :
Oct 15, 2013 at 03:12 AM
what the good Dr. failed to mention was that Floyd covered his bean bag with testosterone patches the night before that ride.
Oct 15, 2013 at 03:14 AM
Neil,neilx said:Jules said:@Gwynna the literarture is pretty clear on the deleterious consequences of your core heating too much; to the point where people have been experimenting with slamming a slushie prior to a time trial, or racing with a stocking full of ice stuffed into their skinsuts...Yes. In fact didn't Allen Lim attempt to explain Floyd Landis' winning performance on the (in)famous 2006 TDF stage win by suggesting it was entirely the result of cooling during the stage? ] :
Indeed, that was part of it. His claim was that Floyd had already managed the wattage for that kind of time in training. And that because it was so hot, and Floyd was constantly pouring water over his head and body, he had an advantage on his chasers who couldn't cool down as much and as often.
So, yes, whenever possible, start in a cool room, and avail yourself to as much cooling technology as you can manage.
Oct 15, 2013 at 04:45 AM
Why would we want to measure progress in the environment that's less controlled? My trainer is the same every time. The road isn't. I don't want to know how much power I can measure, I want to know how strong I am. Those two things are not necessarily one and the same. If my numbers are going up I want to know its because of me and not because of the ups and downs of the road. Also, because I ride the trainer religiously int the winter, I actually CAN put out about the same power for 20 min as I do on the road. I didn't used to be able to, and in fact it seemed impossible that I ever could. But now I can. Shorter efforts no, but 20 and up, I can do now.
Oct 15, 2013 at 02:24 PM
Ryan J said:Why would we want to measure progress in the environment that's less controlled?
Ryan,
We're not discussing average speed. We're discussing heart rate and power. And neither your heart nor your legs know whether or not you're in a race, a ride, or slamming your trainer.
When you are looking to quantify your training capabilities, it would strike me that it is important to base it off of what you're capable of. And whether or not you can squeeze out more effort in the confines of a trainer or out on the road strikes me as irrelevant. Either way, you proved you could do X.
This is especially important for people who train with power. Power is the same going up as it is going down. It is the same in the hot as it is in the cold. It is the same solo as with a group. So when you are getting X out on the road for an hour, it means you have the ability to put X out on the trainer for an hour and vice versa.
Let's posit that someone can do X on the road and X minus 20watts (X-20) on the trainer. What happens if they use X-20 to base their numbers off of vs. X? Theoretically, if they use X-20, they won't do their intervals hard enough and thus they are getting less training effect.
Even if this is wrong, what's the worst that can happen? Before the end of a block of training, the person who chose to use X will probably not be able to complete the hard intervals they've planned and perhaps they'll drop their threshold down a bit.
Besides, shouldn't we base our numbers off of the environment that matters most? If you're racing on the trainer, it's one thing, but if you're racing outdoors, surrounded by people, it's another.
Oct 15, 2013 at 02:37 PM
I think the "where you test" question is a bit of a red herring.
The purpose of a test is to generate zones for you to train in; so if you train on the road, a test on the same road is fine, provided you can reproduce it, IMHO.
If you train a lot on the trainer, then an indoor test is good too.
Bottom line though, if anyone is doing more than their old FTP for two hours then it is time for a new test, for sure.
In the absence of a paid coach, I'd recommend the testing protocol that @Ragot's group uses because you'll have lots of people familiar with it to ask questions of.
Oct 16, 2013 at 08:22 PM
You had some impressive summer fitness. So, yes, if you can coast off it, do so.konrad said:So finally, to the point... what do you guys do? How does your approach to CX vary from your approach to road? Will I be okay revving the engine once in a while and trying to coast off that summer fitness?!
Cross can be pretty hard on the body. There are only so many tricks to getting the body to do what it seems to be fighting. So, if you find yourself feeling terrible, rest is probably in order. Because you might find yourself going crazy without activity, active rest--light riding, easy jogging, might be better than sitting around worrying that you're not doing anything.
Some people need lots of hard efforts to keep doing hard efforts. Some don't. If you can get away with doing less, this is a good time of year to do so. (very general advice, I know)
More specifically, if you feel beat monday morning, either skip the effort planned or do something that is as easy as possible. if you feel beat tuesday, samething. Hopefully, you'll start feeling better Wednesday, so get something hard in if possible. Short and sharp is probably the way to go--find a way to keep it fun. Then you can take it easy until the day before the next race, where you do hard, hard openers. And then get in a long warmup on race day.
If you read Simon Burney's cx book, he suggests people motorpace, among other hard efforts. But he's writing for people who are specializing in 'cross. There are plenty of guys who take it as easy as possible during the week and bank on their overall road fitness helping them through.
While heart rate can be a poor metric, I suggest using a recording HRM and seeing if you can notice any trends. How does your HR compare not only from training efforts, but from race to race and compare the numbers with how you are feeling.
Oct 16, 2013 at 10:02 PM
And this doesn't necessarily apply to a "young-gun" like Konrad, but I remember reading last season, that 41-year-old-ish pro racer Adam Myerson (one of the most experienced and knowledgeable cross racers out there) couldn't do real efforts until WEDNESDAY after a weekend of cross racing.
There was a period when he was feeling rocking enough to do some efforts on a Tuesday, but that was more the exception than the rule.
Oct 16, 2013 at 11:01 PM
The season has barely started and I'm in a hole already; bit of a cold, under rested, etc. Did some efforts yesterday and shelled myself into the stone age, so to speak.
See Myerson's storming return to form as an example. He was ready to retire last year, and he does this for a living.
It happens, you just gotta rest yourself out of the hole.
This all belongs under the training thread, but setbacks are the norm they happen to everyone, and there is no avoiding them. Dealing with them gracefully is as much a part of the game as stretching, and anerobic efforts, and fixing your bike.
Folks gearing up for their first big road season take heed; between now & the spring you WILL get sick, you will gain weight, you may even get injured. Take care of yourself and your form will return.
See Myerson's storming return to form as an example. He was ready to retire last year, and he does this for a living.
Oct 17, 2013 at 01:53 AM
I should add to my comments that riding your cx bike slowly off road, working on dis/mounts, working on turns, clipping in, etc, is training. These are all great things to do when you want some activity but don't want to go hard.
Oct 17, 2013 at 01:57 AM
Great point. I put several bike handling skills on my 2013 goals list. It's about a lot more than just pedaling hard, "fo sho"mugwump said:I should add to my comments that riding your cx bike slowly off road, working on dis/mounts, working on turns, clipping in, etc, is training. These are all great things to do when you want some activity but don't want to go hard.
(unless you are Mike or Ragot and actually just tossing another 40 watts onto your FTP is a legitimate strategy)
Oct 22, 2013 at 03:24 AM
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Oct 22, 2013 at 11:31 AM
I think either of the options you're considering could work just fine, Gwynna. Lots of people go on long rides after races. In fact, a lot of people have to ride 30 miles or so just to get to Prospect Park and back for a race. I'd say the thing to consider is how the ride fits into the bigger picture. You're unlikely to overlook on any one day, so just build in adequate rest during the week and you're fine.
The key thing is building an overall plan that works with that big day in it. So think about what races you are targeting, and when - and given that what do you need to be working on March to May.
There are lots of people here who will help you build a training plan if you need that. And JP usually does a great talk on the subject over the winter.
Oct 22, 2013 at 01:27 PM
On a practical note, early Saturday morning open racing doesn't typically occur in NYC until mid-April. Not sure what Saturday Branchbrook race you'd do or the time. But overall, I agree with Ryan. And if you can nap post-ride, that would be great. (and I'm a strong proponent of limiting racing two days on the weekend at the start of the season.Ryan J said:I think either of the options you're considering could work just fine, Gwynna... And JP usually does a great talk on the subject over the winter.
On the second note, the training talk. I'm thinking of doing one Mid-November this year. It will be a talk on the basics of training, taking people from before the start of the season through the year. The talk is geared more to newer racers/members, but all are welcome. (for those who've been in Kissena for about a year, I did one in the winter last year and one in the spring this year)
Oct 22, 2013 at 02:04 PM
Heard a great quote yesterday about knowing when to back off a bit in training - in the context of trying to "stay hungry" for training and racing throughout the year.
"Part of staying hungry is being able to tell when you are a little bit full..."
(This wisdom-drop comes courtesy of Canadian Mike)
Oct 22, 2013 at 02:46 PM
Trying to figure out a way to salvage my cross season.
I've been suffering through some busted up ribs for the last 3+ weeks. The first week I rode on the trainer 4 times, about 30 minutes each, but with limited intensity because I couldn't really put my hands on the bars for more than 2-3 minutes at a time. The next week was pretty much the same but could get in a couple 10 minute medium hard efforts (all PE since I don't have numbers because I haven't swapped things over to the trainer bike yet). Then last week was a bear at work. I actually got out on the bike once to test how things felt (decent but ended up having to pull out of my race at Marty on Saturday) but other than that I only got in one ride.
So now I'm seeing the home stretch of recovery - I can go a whole day without pain killers. I was able to do almost 90 minutes on the trainer this morning with three hard sessions of 10/20s. But now that I can train, I'm not sure what I should be doing to bring my fitness back to a decent level as quickly as possible without frying myself.
Any suggestions?
Oct 22, 2013 at 02:49 PM
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Oct 22, 2013 at 03:41 PM
@jim_nelson. You can start to rebuild some fitness with the micro intervals and some race simulation or hard riding with jumps for 20min or so. Do that for maybe 3weeks and you'll be back on some form.
Oct 22, 2013 at 06:12 PM
Thanks Eric. Should/can I do those twice a week (say 10/20s on Tuesday and hard riding with jumps on Thursday) with some tempo on Wednesday? Is that too much while racing at least one day each weekend?
Oct 22, 2013 at 08:10 PM
Micro on Tuesday. Tempo wit jumps Wednesday. Whatever on Thursday meaning ride easy or endurance or not at all. I wouldn't do a third hard day if you're racing on the weekend. Think of too hard days during the week 3 rest days / writing days / openers and then a race and an easy day on the weekend
Oct 22, 2013 at 08:12 PM
The back-to-back tues-wed intervals is good if you're racing Saturday or Saturday and Sunday, but if the only race is Sunday, I could see making a point of doing tempo with jumps on thursday. Also you can potentially make a point of digging deeper on tuesday if you know Wednesday is for recovery.
Oct 22, 2013 at 08:38 PM
Thanks guys, very helpful.
Oct 22, 2013 at 09:36 PM
I prefer to put openers on Saturday and keep the workouts the same as I find the back to back better for building rather than beating myself down too hard.
Find what works best for you.
Find what works best for you.
Oct 22, 2013 at 11:09 PM
Gwynna, JPs talk will almost certainly help you w/ Battenkill prep. I'm guessing you'll want to do a good amount of tempo, starting fairly soon, and continuing well into the winter. Build a big engine so that when you've got 50 or whatever miles under your belt at Battenkill and its time to kill Stage Road, you can be as fresh as possible (okay, Marc and Eric, cue your base building argument...NOW!)Gwynna Smith said:Yeah, this is what I'm trying to figure out. I'm targeting Battenkill, so all winter prep will gear to that. Then, I'm targeting a huge out-of-town race in August, so April to July will focus on that. Then, it's cross season again!! YAY!If the Sat/Sun races don't start until after Battenkill, though, then I don't need to worry about it. I'll do the slow Saturday rides, and work in the hard workouts around it. The hardest part about riding with that group is hand cramping from all the braking.
Very, VERY interested in the training talk. I have lots more inane questions...
Then, closer to race time, start building in some anaerobic intervals. Battenkill has hills, not climbs. They're short, so its the anaerobic stuff that counts.
Also, find ways to ride in loose, sandy gravel. That's huge.
Oct 23, 2013 at 03:23 AM
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Nov 04, 2013 at 05:02 PM
So I'm not sure exactly which topic is the most appropriate for this question, so I will try this one.
I want to start planning out my training for the rest of the winter and through next season. As someone who's new to bike racing, my question is, what's the road race schedule look like in general (beyond "it starts in March and ends around Labor Day")? Are there any "big" races (or, when are the "big" races) I should try to peak for?
I want to start planning out my training for the rest of the winter and through next season. As someone who's new to bike racing, my question is, what's the road race schedule look like in general (beyond "it starts in March and ends around Labor Day")? Are there any "big" races (or, when are the "big" races) I should try to peak for?
Nov 04, 2013 at 05:04 PM
@Tim make sure you attend JP's Training Talk. He'll walk you through all these (and other) things.
Nov 04, 2013 at 05:42 PM
Tim, there's a good thread somewhere on the forum called "Can't Miss Races" or something like that...
Everyone has their favorites, although what is a favorite for someone else, isn't necessarily going to be your favorite. Obviously, right?
I guess, what I'm trying to say is that while 99% of the world loves the spring road race Battenkill. I don't and will likely never do it again. (stranger things have happened however) Conversely, I'll tearing up criteriums from the banks for the Hudson all the way to the heartland of the crit in Wisconsin again. There are handful of really fun 2-4 day stage races throughout the year that folks often target as "their Tour de France."
For other people, they prefer to stay very close to home and make any number of the local park road racing series their primary target.
Track and MTB racing is another option to keep things complicated...
A lot of it is just going to depend on what you want to explore and what gets you excited about the prospect of training and racing. So click around the forum, read some race reports, see what others have to say about their favorites and go from there.
Nov 07, 2013 at 01:42 AM
@ TimTim Heckman said:So I'm not sure exactly which topic is the most appropriate for this question, so I will try this one.
I want to start planning out my training for the rest of the winter and through next season. As someone who's new to bike racing, my question is, what's the road race schedule look like in general (beyond "it starts in March and ends around Labor Day")? Are there any "big" races (or, when are the "big" races) I should try to peak for?
You have to tell us what you're into. 40 minute crits? 3 hour hilly road races? stage races? local park races? that will certainly help us guide you.