Sep 18, 2011 at 07:10 PM
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Kissena Club Championships
Sep 18, 2011 at 07:10 PM
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Sep 18, 2011 at 07:11 PM
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I like this one. Kissena website?
I like this one. Kissena website?
Sep 18, 2011 at 07:13 PM
Picture...
Sep 18, 2011 at 07:27 PM
Here are a couple of videos. Some breakaways. Files are large, download them from the link.
https://files.me.com/laurasd/uonqnm
https://files.me.com/laurasd/uonqnm
Sep 18, 2011 at 08:49 PM
100 bucks Laura's laugh had something to do with my finish. Didn't realize I took 9th?
Sep 19, 2011 at 07:11 AM
Sep 19, 2011 at 08:56 AM
Wow. It's like the Brady Bunch credits, except the Bradys (and that wacky housekeeper Alice) are all doing the pain face.
Sep 19, 2011 at 09:15 AM
That is the best collection of Pain Faces I've seen all year.
Sep 20, 2011 at 08:47 AM
Although my "pain face" says otherwise, I enjoyed this race. What I liked best was the combining of categories which allowed teammates who don't normally race together do so. Not only was it fun, but it was educational.
For example, I noticed that the guys repeatedly pushing the pace, attacking, or countering (over and over = Wojciech) were often strong 4s and recently upgraded 3s. What was interesting was how INFREQUENTLY more "seasoned" guys like Ragot, Marc and even Jan attacked. They did not hang out in the first 5-10 spots much unless they were attacking or bridging. When they attacked they would go HARD and if the break was reeled in they did not hang out in front.
I rode in the exact opposite way. I often found myself near or at the front with a delusion that by doing so I would be more likely to be able to go with an attack or counter attack. While this was partially true, I ended up going with so many surges or unintentionally ending up first wheel that I had less in the tank when in mattered most.
Take home message (for next season?): Conserve + make your attacks count.
Patrick
For example, I noticed that the guys repeatedly pushing the pace, attacking, or countering (over and over = Wojciech) were often strong 4s and recently upgraded 3s. What was interesting was how INFREQUENTLY more "seasoned" guys like Ragot, Marc and even Jan attacked. They did not hang out in the first 5-10 spots much unless they were attacking or bridging. When they attacked they would go HARD and if the break was reeled in they did not hang out in front.
I rode in the exact opposite way. I often found myself near or at the front with a delusion that by doing so I would be more likely to be able to go with an attack or counter attack. While this was partially true, I ended up going with so many surges or unintentionally ending up first wheel that I had less in the tank when in mattered most.
Take home message (for next season?): Conserve + make your attacks count.
Patrick
Sep 20, 2011 at 11:21 AM
@Patrick and all who raced. While, I'm quite sure I did NOT ride the tactically smartest of races...I'm glad that the take home message you ended up with was "conserve and make your attacks count." Because that's never going to lead you too far astray. Let me say a few things about what was going on in my head during the race that led me to make the decisions I did. Let me also say as a caveat, that there are probably no perfect choices or racing tactics in all situations. Each of the choices I made had a downside, but you have to make micro calculations over and over and over again and then make split second decisions. Sometimes I did that well, sometimes not so much.
Position:
While many of us preach about the importance of maintaining position near the front of the race, the club championship field was small enough that I felt safe no matter where I was...for most of the race. Unlike a crit where you might experience extreme differences in speed and power requirements based on your position, in a flowing circuit, the major disadvantage to being too far behind is not being in a position to react, to chose how you want to race. Too far back and you are basically playing follow the leader (who may be a guy who is about to pop and leave a painful gap open up in front of him).
In addition to having a smaller field to manage, if I was too far forward I wouldn't be able to easily react to guys attacking from a little further back who had already built up some speed. I suspected that guys like Woj would be attacking often, but I also suspected that no one was going let them get away, so rather than give an explosive effort to be the first guy chasing after the attacking machines, I would more gradually pick up speed and eventually latch onto one of the riders flying by me as the move was brought back. One thing I do, that I started to do in Belgium was to start counting riders/seconds calmly after the first attack goes. 1, 2, 3....all the way up to 10 and by 10, I need to be at full speed ensuring that I'm still at the pointier end of the chase. I don't need to be the first guy to react. Because if I was at the front, and the first guy to try and react to a hard attack, then I'm basically expending the same energy as the attacker, but not having the benefit of surprise, or free choice. I'm burning a valuable match based on someone else's decision that I may or may not have thought was a good move.
Tactics.
Now there were a couple of times, when I thought things looked promising, so I attacked hard to get a gap and bridge up to the lead attackers. But my overall approach to the race was, unlike how I raced in the park for the team most of the year, totally different. I had decided early on in the race that I was in fact going to ride/race for a group sprint. With a few exceptions, I knew the championship field pretty well, and was confident that I could place well in a bunch sprint. Ragot and Jan were my primary worries in a sprinting situation. More of a worry to me throughout the race was missing out on a strong breakaway.
And that brings us to the famous breakaway that should have stayed away, but never was going to. I could be misremember how it began, but I'm pretty sure it came off of a counter of a small move that included Jan, myself and Perlberg. Those guys jumped on the guys flying by, I didn't react and was swallowed up by the group now minus some of the teams most dangerous riders.
And so my next move was not an attempt to bridge, because I knew they were too far already and too strong for me to get across solo. So instead of attacking the field, I motored to the front and started cranking strong and steady. But the group wasn't coming back fast enough and I was doing all I could. Fortunately, there were plenty of other strong guys who didn't want that move going up the road either. And fortunately, we didn't have any guys doing the stupid thing of just waiting until I (or whoever was cranking the lead pull) died, and tried to do the hero solo bridge. Because that never works and just disrupts the flow.
Jeff's counter attack after bringing back that move was a good choice, but would have only succeeded if he or others were strong enough to hold a gap after that hard chase. In retrospect that was probably a missed opportunity for me, I had recovered somewhat as a few guys took had pulls and closed the gap for good after my last hard effort.
Anyway, as I said. Hard to race a tactically perfect race. You make choices and do the best you can.
Position:
While many of us preach about the importance of maintaining position near the front of the race, the club championship field was small enough that I felt safe no matter where I was...for most of the race. Unlike a crit where you might experience extreme differences in speed and power requirements based on your position, in a flowing circuit, the major disadvantage to being too far behind is not being in a position to react, to chose how you want to race. Too far back and you are basically playing follow the leader (who may be a guy who is about to pop and leave a painful gap open up in front of him).
In addition to having a smaller field to manage, if I was too far forward I wouldn't be able to easily react to guys attacking from a little further back who had already built up some speed. I suspected that guys like Woj would be attacking often, but I also suspected that no one was going let them get away, so rather than give an explosive effort to be the first guy chasing after the attacking machines, I would more gradually pick up speed and eventually latch onto one of the riders flying by me as the move was brought back. One thing I do, that I started to do in Belgium was to start counting riders/seconds calmly after the first attack goes. 1, 2, 3....all the way up to 10 and by 10, I need to be at full speed ensuring that I'm still at the pointier end of the chase. I don't need to be the first guy to react. Because if I was at the front, and the first guy to try and react to a hard attack, then I'm basically expending the same energy as the attacker, but not having the benefit of surprise, or free choice. I'm burning a valuable match based on someone else's decision that I may or may not have thought was a good move.
Tactics.
Now there were a couple of times, when I thought things looked promising, so I attacked hard to get a gap and bridge up to the lead attackers. But my overall approach to the race was, unlike how I raced in the park for the team most of the year, totally different. I had decided early on in the race that I was in fact going to ride/race for a group sprint. With a few exceptions, I knew the championship field pretty well, and was confident that I could place well in a bunch sprint. Ragot and Jan were my primary worries in a sprinting situation. More of a worry to me throughout the race was missing out on a strong breakaway.
And that brings us to the famous breakaway that should have stayed away, but never was going to. I could be misremember how it began, but I'm pretty sure it came off of a counter of a small move that included Jan, myself and Perlberg. Those guys jumped on the guys flying by, I didn't react and was swallowed up by the group now minus some of the teams most dangerous riders.
And so my next move was not an attempt to bridge, because I knew they were too far already and too strong for me to get across solo. So instead of attacking the field, I motored to the front and started cranking strong and steady. But the group wasn't coming back fast enough and I was doing all I could. Fortunately, there were plenty of other strong guys who didn't want that move going up the road either. And fortunately, we didn't have any guys doing the stupid thing of just waiting until I (or whoever was cranking the lead pull) died, and tried to do the hero solo bridge. Because that never works and just disrupts the flow.
Jeff's counter attack after bringing back that move was a good choice, but would have only succeeded if he or others were strong enough to hold a gap after that hard chase. In retrospect that was probably a missed opportunity for me, I had recovered somewhat as a few guys took had pulls and closed the gap for good after my last hard effort.
Anyway, as I said. Hard to race a tactically perfect race. You make choices and do the best you can.
Sep 20, 2011 at 09:05 PM
@ Patrick and Marc
Your analysis of the race is pretty much spot on. I was thinking about tactics before / during / and after the race and settled on a few things.
If it was a PRO123 race, I certainly would have employed a different strategy. I'd be looking for the "right" break, and I'd be happy with any spot in the money, or getting a teammate into the right break and in the money. If it was a PRO123 race, I'd never even bother launching my own attacks. In fact, I'd probably be camping out on Brian Breech's or Stephen Diolowski's wheel waiting for their move. I'd try to stay close enough to the front to react and ignore anything from Die Hard or similar teams who have little success in breakaways.
This wasn't that type of race. I wanted to give myself the best shot possible for a win. That meant:
If I feel good, riding aggressive and trying to get to the line a) with a tired Eric/Jan b) get to the line without Eric / Jan
If I didn't feel good, well, time for damage control.
Of course, as bike racing goes, things can start to seem frustrating when some folks (Eric, Marc, etc.) are working towards a sprint and other guys (Woj, me, Wililam, Joe, Norm, uhh, everyone) putting their cards in the breakaway basket. One might think with so many eggs in the breakaway basket it would work - but it meant that every time someone wasn't represented they'd help in the chase, thus aiding the folks riding for the field sprint.
So in a race like this, in the end, its about giving yourself the best shot possible at the highest possible placing. So for me that meant trying to sneak away with every last rider possible. So would I mimic the tactic in an open race? Hell no, I'd be hanging on for dear life at the back of the pack. But if we lined up again tomorrow, I'd have to stick with a similar strategy.
Your analysis of the race is pretty much spot on. I was thinking about tactics before / during / and after the race and settled on a few things.
If it was a PRO123 race, I certainly would have employed a different strategy. I'd be looking for the "right" break, and I'd be happy with any spot in the money, or getting a teammate into the right break and in the money. If it was a PRO123 race, I'd never even bother launching my own attacks. In fact, I'd probably be camping out on Brian Breech's or Stephen Diolowski's wheel waiting for their move. I'd try to stay close enough to the front to react and ignore anything from Die Hard or similar teams who have little success in breakaways.
This wasn't that type of race. I wanted to give myself the best shot possible for a win. That meant:
If I feel good, riding aggressive and trying to get to the line a) with a tired Eric/Jan b) get to the line without Eric / Jan
If I didn't feel good, well, time for damage control.
Of course, as bike racing goes, things can start to seem frustrating when some folks (Eric, Marc, etc.) are working towards a sprint and other guys (Woj, me, Wililam, Joe, Norm, uhh, everyone) putting their cards in the breakaway basket. One might think with so many eggs in the breakaway basket it would work - but it meant that every time someone wasn't represented they'd help in the chase, thus aiding the folks riding for the field sprint.
So in a race like this, in the end, its about giving yourself the best shot possible at the highest possible placing. So for me that meant trying to sneak away with every last rider possible. So would I mimic the tactic in an open race? Hell no, I'd be hanging on for dear life at the back of the pack. But if we lined up again tomorrow, I'd have to stick with a similar strategy.
Sep 21, 2011 at 12:41 AM
I feel it necessary to warn people not to race other people's strengths. Race your own strengths.
For example, when I'm racing a small pro/1/2 field with pro racers or strong cat 1's, or racing a similar but larger field on a course that can be conducive to breakaways, I'm loath to wait for the pro to attack. The thing about riders who are much stronger is they can bridge bigger gaps faster and then contribute to the break. They don't need to initiate, in fact it's often counter-producutive for them, because everyone is looking for the strongest attacking rider to attack. Waiting for the strongest guy to attack is usually a bad idea. Chances are, you won't be in position when he goes or even if you are, you might blow up just holding onto his wheel. So when I've done the Philipsburg Crit in New Jersey or Tour du Parc in Long Island, or even Grant's Tomb, I want to be ahead of the pro and have the pro come up to me. Did you watch Grant's Tomb this year? Scott Zwisanski of United Health Care waited for a move that looked good and then blasted out of the field to get on it, and the race was over.
When you're a weaker rider and can't rely on your sprint for a good placing, it's often better to attack before the strongest rider wants to go and try to establish a break that either the strong rider has missed or that he will attack the field to get up to with no passengers.
So if you think you can't match the sprinters and probably can't follow the move of the breakaway riders, you want to look for times when it's opportune for you to get out ahead and wait for racers to attack up to you. Wait for a strong move to get reeled in, and as people are taking a breather, go for it. Or pick a time when people wouldn't otherwise attack. Just roll off quickly and without fanfare and let yourself hang out htere. If you can hold a gap for a little while, people might try to counter-attack to get up to you, rather than just dragging the field.
For example, when I'm racing a small pro/1/2 field with pro racers or strong cat 1's, or racing a similar but larger field on a course that can be conducive to breakaways, I'm loath to wait for the pro to attack. The thing about riders who are much stronger is they can bridge bigger gaps faster and then contribute to the break. They don't need to initiate, in fact it's often counter-producutive for them, because everyone is looking for the strongest attacking rider to attack. Waiting for the strongest guy to attack is usually a bad idea. Chances are, you won't be in position when he goes or even if you are, you might blow up just holding onto his wheel. So when I've done the Philipsburg Crit in New Jersey or Tour du Parc in Long Island, or even Grant's Tomb, I want to be ahead of the pro and have the pro come up to me. Did you watch Grant's Tomb this year? Scott Zwisanski of United Health Care waited for a move that looked good and then blasted out of the field to get on it, and the race was over.
When you're a weaker rider and can't rely on your sprint for a good placing, it's often better to attack before the strongest rider wants to go and try to establish a break that either the strong rider has missed or that he will attack the field to get up to with no passengers.
So if you think you can't match the sprinters and probably can't follow the move of the breakaway riders, you want to look for times when it's opportune for you to get out ahead and wait for racers to attack up to you. Wait for a strong move to get reeled in, and as people are taking a breather, go for it. Or pick a time when people wouldn't otherwise attack. Just roll off quickly and without fanfare and let yourself hang out htere. If you can hold a gap for a little while, people might try to counter-attack to get up to you, rather than just dragging the field.
Aug 11, 2012 at 04:00 PM
Here it comes!
Brooklyn, NY Saturday, September 22, 2012
Kissena Club Championships
https://www.bikereg.com/Net/15788
The
Kissena Club Championship race is open to Kissena Cycling Club Category
1-4 members only. Kissena Category 5 riders should race in the
Category 5 race. Kissena Cat 1-4 riders can register on race day.
Aug 11, 2012 at 04:13 PM
This was the most fun I had at a bike all of last year. If you can make it, you absolutely should.
If you are a cat 5 and feeling comfortable enough to upgrade, get your final races in and join us, otherwise you have to race the cat 5 field.
Aug 11, 2012 at 05:29 PM
Hope these get you pumped a little bit!
Aug 11, 2012 at 05:31 PM
Aug 11, 2012 at 06:35 PM
ugh, my pain face - so gross.
The first road race I ever did was the Catch Kissena event in 2009 - after my 5 race, I watched the main event and seeing the club working like a well-oiled seal to stay away from the field convinced me right there to join up.
Looking forward to banging heads with you all again this time.
Aug 11, 2012 at 06:49 PM
I love it, you can't see me in the group!
Hope these get you pumped a little bit!
Aug 11, 2012 at 08:47 PM
^^That was the dangerous move of the day. I remember looking up the road and thinking, "hmmmm John, Joe, Mike, Jan, Lenny, Ragot all going away ... this can't be good"
Shutting it down was fun.
Aug 16, 2012 at 02:27 AM
Hey, is our race supposed to be closed on bikereg? Do we reg for this? I can't remember.
Aug 16, 2012 at 02:48 AM
Reg day of...
Aug 16, 2012 at 03:28 PM
i'm planning to reg for this one - and hoping the parade lap is very parade-y so i can actually stick with the group for at least 1 lap!!
after that i'll be on the sideline doing Konditori Swedish cocoa-ball hand-ups (actually.....that doesn't sound quite right....).
Aug 17, 2012 at 01:12 AM
yes I'll stuff some of those cocoa balls in my mouth
NO THAT DOESN'T SOUND RIGHT AT ALL.
NO THAT DOESN'T SOUND RIGHT AT ALL.
Aug 17, 2012 at 02:15 PM
cocoa ball hand-ups
new fetish
Aug 18, 2012 at 12:49 AM
I've realized I'm a Cat 5 on the road, so I thought this is the perfect opportunity for my first US park race! The Cat 5 race is 17 miles though, sounds long....Will there be a feed zone (with or without cocoa ball hand ups)? :-P
Aug 20, 2012 at 10:05 PM
The cat 5 race, looking at bikereg it looks like its a public race, is that the case or just Kissena members?
Aug 20, 2012 at 10:09 PM
[cough]Mayor's Cup[cough]
Aug 21, 2012 at 01:23 AM
[cough]Mayor's Cup[cough]Whaaa? Vlad, you traitor!
The cat 5 race, looking at bikereg it looks like its a public race, is that the case or just Kissena members?Ashley, the 5 race is a public race - c'mon, get your upgrade son! What better way to dive into the 4's than banging heads with your fellow Kissenas?
Aug 21, 2012 at 01:51 AM
A few from post-KKC Champs last year...in the days before Konditori cocoa balls.
We were so innocent.
