Kissena Forum Archive

L&C Cup

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oh yeah hannah told me about the dog. she said the guy who unleashed (always wanted to use that word literally) the race-ending danger on four legs didn't quite appreciate what an idiotic move that is at a bike race

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8aBD1oLKpQ4
studied the Dots Jersey's moves for last (3)L&C races and his intent was to slide up the right side behind the Kissena Yack Train to challenge Chris in the last 15m for the KOM line... PDJ was (1)rider, team 'X,' behind the Kissena Train at base of hill on right, i moved up super tight in the gutter on the right and held position to the right and behind the 'X' rider, PDJ called out to me "Kissena, don't box me in" repeatedly, my response, "Doing my job," i maintained position & he was forced to move back, out to left and over to the left 3-4riders to get up the road &the find the Kissena Train. not sure how close he 
Harry I'm sure there are (and will be) lots of opinions on this but from this description I don't think you are on good footing.  Blocking a rider in like that is both dangerous and I'm sorry to say - not very sporting.

First, as you say he was ahead of you and you were super tight - since we all know he's the fastest guy in the pack up that hill (it takes about 4 or 5 of us to keep him to close second) he could have been a dick and taken you (and everyone behind you) out by launching early with a bit of a shove - but more importantly we don't want to beat him by surrounding him with riders and PIT him every time he wants to move.

There is a very big difference between not letting someone into a leadout train and not letting someone out especially if they're ahead of you and stronger/faster.

Blocking is a delicate (and hotly debated) art but the one thing people agree on is that for better or worse it is done from IN FRONT not up close and behind.

Absolutely the inside line is the fastest one for that sprint but it's for the guys in FRONT of him to own that and make him come around.
Sorry Jules. If someone says "on your left" or "don't box me in" "inside" they are trying to get you to alter what you are doing to benefit themselves. If you know and like the person you can give them room. But in reality those phrases are really asking people in front of you to do exactly the opposite. If its at a point in the race when it doesn't matter than whatever move over. But when the shit hits the fan and you're I. The right spot but someone else isn't, well tough for them. I'm not sure harry really did wrong.

If I box Stalin in so Ryan can win a kom then I've done the right thing and Stalin blew it. I've been boxed in or unable to get where I want to be on multiple occasions. Its my fault. Not someone else. If I really need to be somewhere then it is my job to get there. If telling at someone males that happen then good for me. If not. Oh well.

The world is in balance I have DISAGREED with JULES again!!!
eragot said:
for me. If not. Oh well. The world is in balance I have DISAGREED with JULES again!!!
It won't last...

Daring someone to chop your wheel is no way to go through life, son - IMHO

We will generally dominate, numbers-wise, in Charlie's races - I don't think there's anything wrong with using the numbers advantage to achieve our goals, but we must use our powers for good, not to be bullies.  Not to say that this was Harry's intention - just that when we box people in, slow down or soft-pedal in sweeping position or practice other sketchy tactics AND we have people everywhere it looks bad.
Yeah, I see it the same way. I appreciate everyone helping out but having massive numbers in a category can also deemed obnoxious (I've been told this by multiple riders and sometimes it's not hard to see their point). I mean, technically we did nothing "wrong", but it's a cat 4 KOM at the park and the guy is super strong (and cool) with like one teammate.

It's rather crass to not let him have a shot at it. I know that him being poorly positioned is his own fault, but we don't have to gang up on one guy to prevent him from doing his best.

As Jules said, it's just not very sporting.


@mr Roazen,
sorry Jules you were NOT there i was, and i would appreciate that:
a) you read accurately, i was ahead of the PDJ, ahead and to the right ,
b) i really do not care if he "is the fastest, toughest, smartest guy, most handsome, fellow in the pack or on the planet" i do not need to "Yield" to his request for the back or side due to his unfortunate position(for him in this case)
c) what i did at 2nd KOM was NOT unsafe! & i would appreciate that you not imply it was.
d) i guess there are simply differing philosophies to the "gentlemanly" means of racing in the park!
-h:-)
1996 Olympic trials for the USA endurance track spot. Entire Shaklee team boxes in Adam Laurent in the final sprint shutting him out and giving their teammate Brian McDonough the win. Serious box action starts at 3:50.


http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=xXm0-sFg3S0&desktop_uri=/watch?v=xXm0-sFg3S0



Your personal feelings about the tactics aside. Some classic footage.
I think Eric has it right, as a rule - it's still a race and we're all there to compete and the RB guy put himself in the wrong place. I found myself boxed in by Foundation and Mengoni on my last KOM trip up that hill, and when Stalin saw that he attacked. But - I think the context is important too. The 4s on some days have more riders racing than feels sportsmanlike to me. Before long the 123s may face the same issue. We may need to start thinking about this..
4:48 is that Christian Vande Velde?
Oh, and Harry when you choose to post in English you can complain about people "reading carefully"

Your quote (which I bolded) stands.

My opinion is that your move was neither safe nor sporting, all things considered.  I'll say it, imply it and repeat it as often as I choose, thank YOU very much.
"i moved up super tight in the gutter on the right and held position to the right and behind the 'X' rider"(hb)

Jules, fyi the "X" in above sentence is not the Polka Dot Jersey.
all the best!
Whoah, easy fellas! 
Maybe a beer and a packet of salt and pepper chips is in order this Tuesday night.
It's "crisps" that come in packets john..for shame.
On Jun 23, 2013 10:35 PM, "John Malcolmson" <
regarding boxing.

The other week, I was behind one of our guys leading into the KoM and Franklin Burgos comes up on my right as we were moving right just as the road curved right.  I didn't put him there.  He put himself there.  And he's stuck on the curb.  Franklin is an easy target, as he has no problem working other people over ("sporting" is not a term anyone will use near Mr. Burgos) and bitches when he doesn't get to do so (did I mention how he loves to attack through the jogger's lane?).  But there he was, on my right, with his bars a bit behind mine.  As the speed is ramping up, I'm holding him there, and he's starting to yell.  Tough darts, I think.  I'm not moving.  And I don't, but as the sprint opens up, I don't quite have the same burst as the guy in front of me, and my bars go from in front to Franklin's, to behind by a few inches.  He sees this, swings left and chops me, and just comes around Ryan because Ryan went for the wrong line.  If I had held him there another moment, Ryan would have had second.  It wasn't terribly sporting of him to chop me, either--and to the bigger question of ethics, his move was arguably less ethical, as he disregarded the safety of those behind him, while I was riding safely and predictably and no one was going to have to change their line on my account.
I also want to add that my biggest victory of the day was waking up at 5am and getting to the race with about 5 minutes to spare.  After that it was downhill.  Double-flat.  The tube in my bag had a hole and my sticker patches failed three out of four attempts.  
uploaded the video overnight, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6YIKbD5X7M.  hopefully it will restore civility to this thread.  i need a bigger microSD card in the camera; it ran out of room on the bell lap and stopped recording :(

the results were wrong (i am dan reiners; bruce, apparently, raced? he was moving so fast that i never even saw him start) so even though charlie posted the new standings, they are perhaps incorrect.  however, yacks is in the dots...

e-mailed greg from prtiming, he said the bib file used was incorrect, and is in the process of correcting the results.

@mugwump now i feel bad about leaving when i did without giving you a tube.  75% failure rate with the patches, sheesh!  sorry about that
JP,

Are you still stuck at the park?  I can swing by with some spare tubes and help out.
Keeping in mind my own racing reputation and that of the club, I box people in all the time. It's very satisfying, and very effective at neutralizing them.

Saying, "don't box me in" and being a super nice guy are also pretty effective tactics for getting people to do you favors in races, and Eric has those moves down pat. I also try to charm my way around people when I think it might work. If I were in Eric's shoes after the race, I would fault my own pack positioning, not that of another team.

All that being said, it is of utmost importance that no matter what tactic you are using, you must be safe and not risk crashing yourself or anyone else. Even if your behavior incites someone else to go aggro and cause a crash, you are partly responsible and have to live with that or try to make excuses for your own conscience. An example of that would be trying to box him in during the sprint, while he is sprinting. If he makes it up to a good wheel and is contesting the sprint, it would be very risky to try to box him in. Better to man up and just try to out sprint him.
Brendan this video is awesome !!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6YIKbD5X7M

It clearly shows how well the KOM train operated yesterday.  If you watch what we did, you are going to realize that if we repeat it, we will retain the jersey.

KOM #1
at 31:50  David Yang hits the front and gives us ONE HOT MINUTE.  A herculean effort.  I think you can see Jules pat him on the back on the way by.  Look at who is behind us...We have Tito, Patrick and Brendan.  Jules takes over around the 32 minute mark and drives it for 45 seconds.  Meantime at 33:11 the polka dots has to make his move...he doesn't know it yet but his sprint is already over.  He has to work for 25 seconds, out of the saddle & in the wind, just to reach my wheel.  Do you know what is waiting for him when he gets there?  MY KICK !!!  game over...Kissena wins

KOM #2
let's start this one at the start/finish.  (56:12) We have Jules leading Jeff, followed by Brendan, Patrick & Tito. Jeff rides a good tempo to the base of the climb.  At 56:54 Brendan hits the front and drills if for 20 seconds.(57:18)  Patrick and Tito jump....followed by me AND with the polka dots right on my wheel, sitting right in my draft....(57:24) I split through a gap between Patrick and Tito and and drop...you guessed it...MY KICK !!! game over...Kissena wins

my time in the wind for KOM #1 = 10 seconds
my time in the wind for KOM #2 = 20 seconds

Guys....I was in the wind for a total of 30 seconds. 30 SECONDS !  That is how we got those points.  I can't out climb Erik Pedersen...look at him...he is lanky bastard with a power to weight ratio that makes me want to become anorexic.  We will NOT be able to hold this jersey unless we repeat what we did next weekend. Let's line it up and drill it into the climb with 3 or 4 Kissena's behind me.  Erik is going to look for my wheel early next week.  If you are behind me...no gaps and defend your wheel.  Thank you all....this video just illuminates what I already know...that Kissena is by far the most selfless team in the city.  Yacks

This is a great video, really awesome.  I very cool to watch both of those trains rock it out.  I cringe to see how much room I left our "Polka Dot Polemica" on the right but live & learn; next time it'll be straight up the gutter.

Watching so many people sacrifice themselves makes me really proud to ride with Kissena.  Opinions notwithsanding - everyone did their best to get Yaks into those dots and it's a splendid thing to participate in.

One note, lost in my repot; after the second KOM Andy our green jersey sprinter came back to pace me back up to the group... super gentlemanly.
I'm going to interject on a topic/conversation that has nothing to do with me.  Because I want to.  Free country, losers!!  We have all our emails being read so I have the right to do this.  If you don't like it, get Snowdon to blow a whistle.  Tough taters!!

I digress, anyway.

1) About too many Kissena riders in a field.  Lots of teams run races and at those races, often single events, the whole team is pressed into service for reg, marshalling, course set up etc.  In lots of these races (i.e. Pawilng and Purgatory) the team is basically forbidden to race as it's their turn to provide an event for other racers.  Once a year they don't race so that they can put on an event for others.  A nice attitude.  Just food for thought.  Not saying that Kissena should be banned from it's own race series, just makes you think about how having 13 guys in an 80 rider field in our own race, week in, week out, might look to other teams.

2)That KOM at ~32 minutes in the video is perplexing to me.  How on earth are there not 5 Kissena riders attacking the fuck out of that situation?!?!  At the end of the climb the race is in pieces at the front.  Perfect attack time.  Why do you need 3 sweepers?!?!  Get off the front and go.  Looked good though.
i love watching videos of kiseena dominating.  32 mins in, when yang nails it and then behind you see the white and orange armada follow.  well, that's beautiful, that is. 
some highlights, then back to work. might post more later as i remember the things that stuck out:

imaginary KOM (thought it was a KOM lap; it wasn't) - 25:30
a TRAIN of kissena coming out from behind me (including yang's megapull) - 31:50
a leadout for the sprint (more kissena train)?  it was unclear to me exactly what i was doing, but i see that andy comes by me so i assume it was a sprint? - 39:00
jules, you'll be proud; i diligently refused to take a pull when a W&D rider beckoned me through; told him i was receiving orders from above. not sure if camera shows it but he smiled. had you heard, i'm sure you would have too... - 20:24

oh also hannah got this picture of the kissena train. makes it look like the race is only us?  i've chosen not to attach the same picture from a slightly different angle, which reveals that the guy on my left is not a kissena.  also: i think i semi-aggressively nonpushingly pushed him (when you do that thing where you just sort of indicate by placing your bike in a path slightly incompatible with theirs) off the wheel in front of me


image
We need sweepers to make the guy chasing me get out in the wind...the pace up the climb on those kom laps is pretty nasty...Last weekend Jeff Condon used it to start a four man break in which he took 2nd.  so Tat on THAT !
@Brendan - all ive done so far at work is watch this video.. Thanks!!
Yes, yes Herr Yacks, I know what the sweepers are for.  But the second they have done said job, of forcing your opponent out into wind, they are not sweepers, they are teammates not doing anything.  Once polka dot dude jumped around them, he was a free ride up the hill, and a free launch pad to start a move, as you mention, exactly how Jeff did last week to great success.  


Tat tat tat
I was too busy trying not to fomit
(faint then vomit)
You were not a sweeper, Julian.  Not your responsibility.
Adam said:
You were not a sweeper, Julian.  Not your responsibility.
I meant "too busy to scream my usual WHY ARE YOU NOT ATTACKING PRIVATE PYLE?!?"

(but in fairness the plan had been to keep it together until after the 2nd KOM)