Local Dopers - Forum Archive

Aug 20, 2014 at 02:28 PM

At the race, they told us that USADA would be testing the podium as well as two randomly selected riders. From what I recall, and my memory is a little fuzzy, I did not see Durso podium in the results. Now that the doper has disappeared from them, Durso's up there.

He's definitely on a different team. I didn't mean to implicate him as a doper.

Bruce van-Schalkwyk

Aug 20, 2014 at 02:37 PM

People have bad races, mechanicals, etc, I get that. But on USAC, I look for patterns, often anyone over 40 (though it doesn't have to be age specific), who wins then loses, wins then loses. His 2014 results go 5 then 23, 12 then 41, 3 then 65. There appears to be a roller coaster. I don't know what the cycles of doping are, but I imagine there are cycles, ups and downs, that are demonstrated by inconsistent, with fabulous, results.

I remember seeing these types of results with David Anthony, also.

Generally, with good, solid racers, they finish mid-pack and occasionally get into the top 10, and they have bad races also.

Unscientific, but am I off the mark here in seeing potential doping, or is this a typical pattern of any racer who does well?

Jules

Aug 20, 2014 at 03:22 PM

I applaud the insight but I think it's a horrible way to sniff out cheaters. Steroid use can change your ability to sprint for a lifetime - decades after stopping use.

Sure the guy who never got higher than a DFL and suddenly wins Battenkill should raise an eyebrow but so what? Some people are consistent athletes and some need a lot of time to recover - mentally and physically.

I think if you were looking at 10k running times or something more empirical you'd have more of a leg to stand on but for road racing? Natch.

#YMMV

#HUGS

vlad

Aug 20, 2014 at 04:08 PM

Results can be misleading, especially if working for teammates. Dopers often tend to be selfish racers though.

Nonetheless, I'm finding that, similarly to learning the art of bike racing, deciphering who may or may not be doping is more about nuance than it is about blare. Little things, not spectacular ones.

Things also change dramatically as you ascend the ranks. It's much easier to be a spectacular Cat 4 then it is a Cat 1. We saw this with DA. The law of diminishing returns perhaps?

Fuck those guys. Somehow it makes me feel better about my ability.

mugwump

Aug 20, 2014 at 06:01 PM

mperlberg said:

Vlad and I did that race. I don't know what category he was racing in but they made it very very clear that there would be testing (at the start line) and had to check to see if your number was pulled.

Word from my Jersey friends was that one guy they pegged as a doper skipped out on his test. They thought it was deliberate. They didn't name the person they suspected, as they figured this moment would occur.

WHat's interesting is that they tested several guys and his is the only test that has been announced as positive.

I agree with Jules and Vlad that results can be misleading. It's easier, but hardly definitive, to spot when you're racing against the person. See a person put in middling rides week in, week out, see them struggle in a break, and then two weeks later, he's crushing you when you're at about the same point you were two weeks ago, and an eyebrow can be raised. Sure, the person could have finally gotten over his bronchitis, or quit his job and is sleeping 12 hours a night, but at the same time, there's a difference between figuring out the tactical game and going from pack fodder to killer.

twoyacks

Aug 20, 2014 at 08:06 PM

was there an actual positive test or did these guys simply not turn up at the controls when asked? If there was a positive, what were they taking?

konrad

Aug 20, 2014 at 09:02 PM

@twoyacks: He heard his name called, peed his pants at the thought of getting busted, and thus couldn't produce a sample.

Jules

Aug 21, 2014 at 08:39 AM

Cue the Clown Music...

http://www.usantidoping.org/

Jules

Aug 21, 2014 at 08:40 AM

^ to be clear, that's the link from USAC's website

David Yang

Aug 21, 2014 at 07:16 PM

Where is the facepalm emoticon?

mperlberg

Aug 23, 2014 at 05:27 PM

@Vlad - quick clarification.

This guy rode for Team Somerville Bike Shop, named after the town of Somerville NJ. We've long suspected them of doping. They've done some unbelievable stuff in local racing and are very erratic. I am not surprised to find one of their riders get popped.

Sommerville Sports, aka Sommerville Factory Team (notice the extra m?) is a custom cycling clothing company owned by Dave Sommerville in Brooklyn NY and completely unrelated to the bike shop team.

So Eric is joining the non-doping of the 2.

twoyacks

Aug 23, 2014 at 06:19 PM

Wait what...an Eric from our squad defects? Give me the pertinents...

Marc Bertucco

Aug 23, 2014 at 07:25 PM

twoyacks said:

Wait what...an Eric from our squad defects? Give me the pertinents...

Eric Ragot, asked to join Dave Sommerville's clothing company team, says yes. Will be wearing Sommerville team kit starting 2014/15 cross season at Nittany.

mperlberg

Aug 23, 2014 at 11:53 PM

Hah. Yacks just made it clear he only gets alerts to forum posts when they contain keywords "carbon" "powerCal" or "doper."

twoyacks

Aug 24, 2014 at 12:03 AM

did someone say "doper"? me's thinking this performance looks a bit spicious....just look at the time gaps. Tom Zirbel loses over four minutes in 10 miles?

http://velonews.competitor.com/2014/08/news/results-2014-usa-pro-challenge-stage-6_342359

twoyacks

Aug 24, 2014 at 02:47 AM

Heavy, icy rain pelted the late starters, but despite the unfavorable temperatures, van Garderen smashed his record of last year by 36 seconds.

Ice and rain are totally the best conditions for smashing course records....totally

mugwump

Aug 24, 2014 at 02:29 PM

Yack,

this goes in the Pro Doper Thread.

That written, there are a number of explanations beyond doping.

First, Zirbel. As it was an uphill time trial, he might have decided that his girth didn't favor a good result. He might have decided he was tired. He might have been under team orders to chill so as to be ready to help on the next stage.

Second, the final riders of the time trial were racing with a tailwind up the pass. The storm brought teh tailwind. I watched the race, the top guys took it slower through town, as there were turns and they were riding on bricks. But you could see the trees bowing the direction the riders were traveling.

twoyacks

Aug 24, 2014 at 03:18 PM

once again...facts get in the way of a good story...

twoyacks

Aug 27, 2014 at 03:22 AM

This I lifted from NYvelocity:

"Is the rumor true that the Somerville bike shop was recently raided by the police for drugs - not sure if performance enhancing or recreational type? Also, does anyone know why nearly the entire Somerville team got dropped at the Chris Thater race while they normally get top 10 at other NCC races? The timing of a drug bust + the USADA sanction + the crap results this past weekend seem like more than just a big coincidence."

An actual raid? How fucking pro is that? I hope this is true...really I do

Marc Bertucco

Aug 27, 2014 at 03:26 AM

Wasn't it the Somerville dudes who got stopped by NYPD last year or the year before?

The last time an entire team mysteriously dropped out of a race in my recollection, was in New Jersey, big money, big time teams, and Joe Papp's UPMC team just couldn't finish...

Yeah, that Joe Papp.

mugwump

Aug 27, 2014 at 10:34 PM

twoyacks said:

This I lifted from NYvelocity:

"Is the rumor true that the Somerville bike shop was recently raided by the police for drugs - not sure if performance enhancing or recreational type? Also, does anyone know why nearly the entire Somerville team got dropped at the Chris Thater race while they normally get top 10 at other NCC races? The timing of a drug bust + the USADA sanction + the crap results this past weekend seem like more than just a big coincidence."

An actual raid? How fucking pro is that? I hope this is true...really I do

I heard the rumor before it was on NYV.

twoyacks

Aug 28, 2014 at 02:32 AM

I know I'm too old for this vernacular but.....that shit is Cray Cray

Jules

Sep 04, 2014 at 01:50 AM

...continuing the Basking Ridge discussion - if testing just isn't reliable or frequent enough to deter dopers how about forcing the issue by requiring a bond for a USAC license that is forfeit if you test positive?

Making these local jerks put 10x their potential annual winnings on the line might change the equation?

konrad

Sep 04, 2014 at 03:41 AM

The amount of money these guys spend on doctors and drugs is likely already tenfold what they'd make in a year racing. A bond large enough to dissuade these guys would kill amateur cycling faster than any local dopers could.

Jeffrey White

Sep 04, 2014 at 04:59 PM

And it would unfairly discriminate against economically disadvantaged dopers.

Jules

Sep 04, 2014 at 05:17 PM

Well that's it then. I'm fresh out of ideas.

Dope on, I guess.

mugwump

Sep 04, 2014 at 08:56 PM

Jeffrey White said:

And it would unfairly discriminate against economically disadvantaged dopers.

This is the David Anthony vs. Cesar Marte argument. The moneyed guy flies to Mexico City to get doped with EPO. The poor guy brings his own drugs in, or find a gym 'roider. It's already unfair; the rich doper has access to drugs that make a bigger difference.

That written, even poor dopers can find EPO and HGH. The quality might not be as good, and the risk of taking it greater, but they have access to it.

In societies where the rule of law isn't sufficient, there are often more rigid codes of conduct. The problem in the cycling community is that many only want the rigid codes applied to other people. There is always a club willing to take in a doper. If we did like the MPCC and got all area clubs to agree not to take on a doper for another two years or so after they finished serving a suspension, perhaps that could do a little.

If we're willing to go a step further and figure out penalties for the club that had the doper, that would increase pressure on clubs to root out dopers before they get caught. The problem here is that it could create a witch-trial like atmosphere, which would be bad for everybody.

For example, the day before it was announced that Jared Bunde had tested positive for clomid, he was at Tour de Parc. He chased down everything that moved to set up his teammate Wilson Vasquez for the win. If Mengoni knew that Wilson's results would be voided when the announcement came out, would they have let Jared race in their uniform?

Dan Reiners

Sep 04, 2014 at 08:58 PM

Jules said:

Well that's it then. I'm fresh out of ideas.

Dope on, I guess.

Come on Jules...I know you could pull off some more creative ideas. How about some Judge Dredd style summary execution, or tube socks stuffed with rolls of quarters to beat the dopers...these are just to get the juices flowing.

Unknown

Sep 04, 2014 at 09:42 PM

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twoyacks

Sep 04, 2014 at 10:05 PM

I like where JP is going with this. If you could punish teams somehow...it might work. Perhaps a smaller club wide ban, like a month. Also the club should be represented when the athlete is accused "Jared Bunde of Mengoni Cycling Team" Conjoining the two brings shame on the club...