I am in for 9 AM GWB

Wish I could, but life is getting in the way.

I expect to be out rain or shine on Sunday, 9am GWB.

@RichPolk what time you thinking? I’m heading out of town mid to late morning tomorrow so I’m probably going to try and roll some laps on the earlier side of things

anyone wanna go earlier? I know, I know...not the most popular sentiment. 

@Matt Budofsky was thinking around 11 but if I can go earlier I’ll hit you up in the AM

I plan on being at BB at 8pm

Bust the Clique

I can be at the GWB at 9.

Hopefully it's warm enough for me to break in my new jersey. Otherwise I don't have any winter club kit to look sharp in. 

Hey Dan, shoot me a text in the morning so we can head to the GWB together - 3476288194

Gonna meet at GWB instead. See you at 9

Let me know your route

(s)

Sorry I missed the launch today.  Front tire had a slash through the casing that I discovered after I pumped it up and the sharp edge on the casing punctured the inner tube.  Left me scrambling to find an old 23mm tire to fit the fork.

Got in a Bradley Tweed. Lovely day out there.

Will see you out there next time (tomorrow?)

Yes, gonna try for tomorrow, leaving 8am. Probably just River Road.

I got a flat today too, on a giant chunk of rock salt, and lost the group-11 of us total?... Then ran into John M on the return from Piermont.

James Reeder said:

Yes, gonna try for tomorrow, leaving 8am. Probably just River Road.

I got a flat today too, on a giant chunk of rock salt, and lost the group-11 of us total?... Then ran into John M on the return from Piermont.

Was not there, so want to check in on this, as this reads like a flat caused you to be dropped from a Kissena group ride? Did others on the group know you flatted, did they check on you?

eloy said:

James Reeder said:

Yes, gonna try for tomorrow, leaving 8am. Probably just River Road.

I got a flat today too, on a giant chunk of rock salt, and lost the group-11 of us total?... Then ran into John M on the return from Piermont.

Was not there, so want to check in on this, as this reads like a flat caused you to be dropped from a Kissena group ride? Did others on the group know you flatted, did they check on you?

Good question. I only learned after piermont that you weren’t with us and asked one of the new guys. I assumed from his response that you turned back/turned off. Did anyone know of your flat? We should have stopped for sure. 

: )

I yelled I had a flat (yelling in the wind is no good), and said I was OK when  asked if I was OK  - assuming that meant OK to fix it. This is right before the turnoff to piermont, and it was a nearly instant flat, so totally easy to miss.

Waited at Piermont, after topping off with air and buying another tube. Didn’t know we were going to Nyack else would have continued up there. No biggie and all good from my perspective, and had a great ride back, the wind felt awesome!

Tomorrow, Sun 1/12...9AM BB / 10AM GWB on account of rain 

James Reeder said:

: )

I yelled I had a flat (yelling in the wind is no good), and said I was OK when  asked if I was OK  - assuming that meant OK to fix it. This is right before the turnoff to piermont, and it was a nearly instant flat, so totally easy to miss.

Waited at Piermont, after topping off with air and buying another tube. Didn’t know we were going to Nyack else would have continued up there. No biggie and all good from my perspective, and had a great ride back, the wind felt awesome!

There's a few things to dissect here, and frankly this particular time does not sound like it was a big deal, but I want to address it, as it appears part of a terrible club group ride trend over the past few seasons.

If you are on a Kissena group ride, please do your best to know where all the other riders are at all times. If a rider gets a mechanical everyone needs to stop. SO MUCH F*CKING OBVS DUH.

Simple and basic: Do not leave anyone behind or leave the ride without properly saying goodbye.

Too late for me. If it's dry I'll be out at GWB at 9am.

eloy said:

James Reeder said:

: )

I yelled I had a flat (yelling in the wind is no good), and said I was OK when  asked if I was OK  - assuming that meant OK to fix it. This is right before the turnoff to piermont, and it was a nearly instant flat, so totally easy to miss.

Waited at Piermont, after topping off with air and buying another tube. Didn’t know we were going to Nyack else would have continued up there. No biggie and all good from my perspective, and had a great ride back, the wind felt awesome!

There's a few things to dissect here, and frankly this particular time does not sound like it was a big deal, but I want to address it, as it appears part of a terrible club group ride trend over the past few seasons.

If you are on a Kissena group ride, please do your best to know where all the other riders are at all times. If a rider gets a mechanical everyone needs to stop. SO MUCH F*CKING OBVS DUH.

Simple and basic: Do not leave anyone behind or leave the ride without properly saying goodbye.

agree.
Our **Whole** (and I'm being totally serious here) practice of group rides should be revised. Glad you brought it up Eloy.

^ bummed to read this but then again it's a good lesson that "how to ride in a group" is something that has to be taught, and re-taught every season.

If you're one of the stronger riders then hang out at or off the back to get your work done - that way you can keep an eye out for folks who are having trouble and bridge up to let people know someone is in difficulty.

Look at it this way; if you can't keep track of your teammates on a group ride how are you going to do it in a race?

Hey everyone, I attended the group ride yesterday. It looks like there was a slight miscommunication between a handful of us. It’s not like a bunch of guys raced off the front and ditched half the group. Right around Piermont roughly 2/3 of the group decided to go straight to Nyack instead of going to the bike shop. We all slowed down, bunched into a moving group, and then called out where we wanted to go. Those of us who continued to Nyack thought the remainder of the group was going to stop at Piermont bikes, hang out there for a bit, and then head back. 

Every rider in the club should know the generally accepted group riding etiquette in my opinion. I don't think it's currently being taught during new member onboarding. I could def use a refresher.

Btw today's ride was awesome and pleasd to say that noone got dropped (not completely at least) 😆

Well, I did go out as 9am, as promised.  No Kissena showed, though, to be fair, maybe one person rode past me while I was waiting and none were waiting in the 10m spent at the Jersey side of the GWB.  It's as people didn't know what to do with such good weather.

I knew.  Low road out, Bradley, Mountainview, Rockland Lake park, Rockland Lake Climb, Nyack College Climb, Clausland, then back home on 9W.  Decent pace out, hit a few of the hills at 100%.

My luck turned when Mike Margarite passed me in Palisades, NY.  I had been expecting to hammer 9W and pick off as many people as possible, but now I had an incredible motor to ride with.  I asked his permission to sit on, thinking I'd follow him over the four horsemen, then probably contribute to the pace.  

Once we got to the scout camp, I realized I didn't have the legs to trade pulls with him.  Or at least I feared I didn't.  He claimed he was mostly "cruising" on his Strava upload, but he averaged 311w (only 146 avg hr--I guess this is what national caliber looks like) from the market in Palisades to E Clinton in Tenafly.  I spent a lot of time trying to ride as efficiently as possible, trying to find the best shelter, and thinking about how I could be going faster.  My catalogue of easy stuff: get rid of fender (he didn't have one), deep dish wheels (he had them, though he was blown around a bit), race tires.  Figuring out fitness is harder, but it's only January, and he set some PRs and a KoM on his ride.  I was finally burned off after the sprint hill in Fort Lee.  I made it over the top, but I should have stood on the pedals a bit to just finish it off at the GWB.  Looking at my Market to E Clinton, I had 259w, not bad (Mike probably weighs a little more than me, so not quite the same), but I've got a long way to go to get close to his form. 

I got back to the GWB about 10m faster than expected, so I went for a cool down lap in Central Park.  There, too, not nearly as crowded as I expected.  

Great day.

https://www.strava.com/activities/3006177438

I think it worthwhile to create a new discussion thread to review how we organize and run group rides and see if there are changes that would benefit the club as a whole.

Having said that, we do have guidelines that when attended to can make certain that everyone has a positive experience on group rides.

Please review these guidelines that have been in place for years:

• Our rides are no-drop rides. This is even more important 1) during the winter when having a problem on the road can become more significant and 2) when newer riders who may not be familiar with the roads are present

• Each of us is responsible for knowing who is on the group ride and taking note if someone is missing. Don't assume someone else is keeping track

• Make sure everyone in group knows the options when planning to go off the usual routes (e. g. going long or hard). Often that means splitting up at Piermont or other familiar spot. Make sure that members who are not staying with you know how to head back safely. 

• If the group breaks up on hills wait for the group to reconnect on top, circle back, or arrange to meet up at a pre-determined point. Communicate with each other so members know what to expect

• If you see someone getting dropped off the back, check on them and make sure to let the front of the group know to slow down or stop if necessary. This may be the most important guideline to remember

• If you have a mechanical or other problem, let others know quickly and clearly. Raise your hand if others are looking your way (and if its safe to do so), call out or yell if necessary 

• If you get separated from the group or need help, use Slack to message members. For example, use the #GWB channel for rides towards Piermont or call/message individual members who were on your ride. Note that while phones will receive Slack notifications, direct cell phone calls or texts to members (if you have their numbers) may be more effective as they should get alerts on their Wahoo/Garmin devices

Spirited group rides are fun, but your fitness will not suffer, and the rides will be more enjoyable if everyone pays attention to these guidelines.

We look out and take care of each other!

I wasn't on any of the group rides this weekend, but I will say that I've never had any issues riding as a group with Kissena. I've been on rides where I've flatted 2+ times and everyone stuck with me in the cold rain (if you know, you know- and I'm sorry!). I've been on rides with large groups where everyone stopped or slowed for regroups/mechanical issues. I wouldn't say that this is a chronic issue and I'm surprised to read that anyone got involuntarily left behind this weekend. 

Pat brings up some essential points for making the group rides fun and effective- especially with a huge group like this weekend. Thank you for the refresher! 

Bobby 

Any member should feel comfortable questioning existing practices and proposing alternatives. Sometimes there are reasons for keeping the existing practices, but other times "its just how we have always done it" doesn't cut it. 

I think Dotan also raised the idea of having a designated ride leader in another thread. Its an aide worth discussing. I'm going to start a separate thread so the current thread can still primarily be used for coordinating and reporting on rides

RobertPeras said:

It may not be my place to say anything, but I think the best way to resolve this issue is to assign a ride leader (or two multiple ride leaders depending on the group size) to each group ride to be responsible for logistics and head counts. Also, I’ve been on many group rides and seen members join and leave as they please. I don’t think there’s anything entirely wrong with this (especially since we all live busy lives and it’s hard to align our schedules), but someone (like a ride leader) should account for members coming and going. 

I'll second @PatrickGrehan and add a few more things (You can also repost it in the new thread you plan to open if you want this discussion to move there):

Dropping a rider is not only a blow to the rider's morale and feeling of belonging, but it is also dangerous. Needless to say why. The last thing we want is to leave someone behind only to know later that an accident happened and no teammates were there to assist. We start the ride as a team, we finish the ride as a team.

Here are some practices I think should be bundled to a protocol:

1. A team ride schedule. Just like we have a race schedule, team rides should be on the calendar. No more "Hi, I'm leaving in fifteen min to do bear mountain, who wants to join?" No. We roll like this because there are no scheduled rides. And it can turn out good as it did on Saturday (minus the drop), or it can turn out chaotic and unclear like a lot of the times. Schedule rides, on the calendar, when members can plan to join the ride in advance. Development should be in charge of setting this calendar and design the team schedule.
2. Posting the route in advance. Kissena should have a route repository were we store and retrieve the routes we do. Loading a GPX file before the ride to Wahoo/Gramin units can prevent confusion, getting lost, getting dropped and honestly it is nice to see what's ahead of you. Once we make this repository, it would be easier to plan a ride that is repeating this damn 9w over and over and over again. There are other routes out there. 
3. Assigning each ride team leaders: a head leader, and a lieutenant at the back. The head leader is responsible to lead the team on the road, making sure everybody is together and that we execute the training according to plan (more on this in the further on). The lieutenant is responsible for the riders' safety. He is leading from the back. He addresses gaps, prevents fallbacks from becoming drops, he contacts the rest of the team when there is a technical problem. The leader and the lieutenant make sure that they have a clear phone connection between them before the ride in case they need to communicate remotely. 
4. Team ride is team training. We should have a thought-out training plan for these rides. TTT, bridging, blocking, sprinting, chasing, breakaway... there's enough of these we can do to be a better team. 
5. Briefing. Every ride starts with briefing: introduction of new riders, route description, safety reminders, hand signals + communication (yes. I'm serious), today's training plan, headcount, stopping points, team announcements. This practice is already happening to some extent in group rides. The main problem is the awful rally point we keep getting back to. There is a spot on the Manhattan side of the GWB that is significantly quieter than under the bridge (photos attached). These briefings are super important! They set the tone for the whole ride. It is crucial that we will hear the ride leaders do the briefing and vice versa when we introduce new riders and have questions about the ride.
6. Safety reports. The ride leader is responsible to bring all the riders back safely. Including reporting if there are incidents/near-miss/accidents. Kissena should have data about these things. With this data, we can learn more about the safety of our rides.
7. End of the ride brief. It is important to mark the start of the ride as well as the end of it. Concluding the ride at the rally point will allow riders to reflect on the ride. There is always something to discuss, to suggest further, to reflect. This feedback is important for team building.

Now, for some of you it may read like an overkill. Perhaps it's my military jargon, perhaps your experience is whole without this protocol, perhaps it's too rigid for you. I get it. However, we are already doing a little bit of every point I mentioned here. This protocol makes it clearer - as it should be. I've been riding in groups and teams since I was a teenager and I've seen some strange practices and some good ones. This protocol works. It addresses team-building practices and most importantly, safe ride practices.

Questions?

Dotan.

Here is the rally point suggestion:

James Reeder said:

: )

I yelled I had a flat (yelling in the wind is no good), and said I was OK when  asked if I was OK  - assuming that meant OK to fix it. This is right before the turnoff to piermont, and it was a nearly instant flat, so totally easy to miss.

Waited at Piermont, after topping off with air and buying another tube. Didn’t know we were going to Nyack else would have continued up there. No biggie and all good from my perspective, and had a great ride back, the wind felt awesome!

Shit. I'm really sorry James. I feel partially at blame here. I had no idea that you flatted when I asked if you were ok. I mentioned to the group that you had fallen back, but as Bobby mentioned, part of the group kept going and part of the group decided to stay in Piermont.

I guess the right thing to do would have been to make sure everyone was there before decing to go further into Nyack.

@DotanGreenvald I'm partial to the NJ side of the bridge just because I feel the bridge just stretches the group out because of other users walking or riding at different paces. We'd need to most likely regroup again anyway before heading north. I think psychologically it makes a difference too, but maybe that's just me.