Prospect Park Relations, Road Sharing, etc

Oct 02, 2014 at 02:28 PM

There will be 2 portable stop signs set up on Saturday, 10/4, with police handing out flyers in the park, and reminding people about the 25 mph speed limit. I don't know what time they'll set up, but this will disturb your momentum. It's also looking like it will be raining. If anyone rides in the park, I'd like to hear about your experience. I'm assuming everything's going to be pretty low-key.

http://parkslopestoop.com/blog/crime/78th-precinct-will-focus-on-cyclist-education-in-prospect-park-with-initiative-starting-saturday

http://brokelyn.com/police-going-start-cracking-prospect-park-cyclists/

Ryan J

Oct 02, 2014 at 03:29 PM

I'm not sure whether I'm more annoyed by the idiots who ride too aggressively at all the wrong times, or the idiots who just jump on the pile of bike hatred. It's a crappy situation.

That said, we should police ourselves. Last night I watched a guy roll through a red light while there were a bunch of kids in the intersection. I stopped, then caught up to him and politely explained how that kind of behavior hurts all of us. He was receptive and said he'd pass it on.

Look, I'll never stop at every red light in the park. That would be ridiculous. If it's Tuesday afternoon and the park is empty and its safe to pass through, I'll do so. But right now if it's a situation where passing through a red could remotely be construed by a reasonable person as rude behavior, I stop.

Marc Bertucco

Oct 02, 2014 at 03:43 PM

Preaching to the choir here, but what most annoys me about the situation is the disproportionate nature of the enforcement. I'll keep my speed down and stop at every f'ing stoplight/sign in the city, IF the cops start enforcing speed limits for cars. Enforcing jaywalking laws. Requiring pedestrians to cross only at crosswalks and with their signal.

This is what drives me mad in this debate. Cyclists, we're the only one breaking the law here.

eloy

Oct 02, 2014 at 04:20 PM

I wrote a fairly long note, then deleted it. bcs in a nutshell it said this:

Your behavior as an athlete and cyclist should never be conditioned by that of those around you. Be courteous and gracious no matter the circumstances. Specially if in a Kissena jersey: Represent.

Jules

Oct 02, 2014 at 05:02 PM

eloy said:

Your behavior as an athlete and cyclist should never be conditioned by that of those around you. Be courteous and gracious no matter the circumstances. Specially if in a Kissena jersey: Represent.

THIS

mperlberg

Oct 02, 2014 at 06:45 PM

Jules said:

eloy said:

Your behavior as an athlete and cyclist should never be conditioned by that of those around you. Be courteous and gracious no matter the circumstances. Specially if in a Kissena jersey: Represent.

THIS

I agree, but......

I'm getting very frustrated by the attitude of "we can change the behavior of cyclists by ticketing, education, enforcement, speed limits, bans" but we can do nothing about any other park user (cars, pedestrians, dog walkers, etc.).

To quote the precinct commander at one road sharing task force meeting "I can't get people to stop jaywalking on 4th avenue, how do you expect me to do it in the park." who then followed up later in the meeting with "we can change the behavior of cyclists by ticketing". This sentiment is shared by the prospect park higher ups. It's bunk.

mugwump

Oct 02, 2014 at 08:15 PM

The difficulty is that cyclists are expected to "share the road" with every other user group, but no other user group is expected to operate under the same directive.

Which is to write that many drivers and pedestrians fail the ethical guideline of "do unto others..."

mugwump

Oct 02, 2014 at 08:31 PM

http://www.citylab.com/commute/2014/10/the-rate-of-pedestrians-injured-by-bicyclists-is-going-down/381013/

Will cross-post in articles of interest.

Ryan J

Oct 02, 2014 at 11:36 PM

What's amazing about the whole speed limit enforcement on bikes is that we know for a fact that NYPD only enforces drivers going 11+ MPH over the posted limits. So, is it cool for me to go 36 MPH in the park?

Adam Fabian

Oct 03, 2014 at 02:52 AM

Ryan J said:

What's amazing about the whole speed limit enforcement on bikes is that we know for a fact that NYPD only enforces drivers going 11+ MPH over the posted limits. So, is it cool for me to go 36 MPH in the park?

I was just thinking this earlier today. When the cops do this to cars it's a speed trap and cash grab. I wonder, if nabbed, if the margin of error defense would hold, since that's why drivers get the buffer.

Jules

Oct 08, 2014 at 05:19 PM

A belated FYI; Kissena is endorsing the New York Cycle Club's Central Park Cycling Protocol.

http://nycc.org/CP-Cycling-Protocol

NYCC has also asked us to draft a similar one for Prospect Park. The proposed Prospect Protocol will be voted on by the board. Obviously we won't cut & paste, but if you have strong opinions one way or another please contact your favorite board member.

(Todd, Erika, Kayt, Stokes, Brendan, Yang, Whitey, Joaquin or me)

eragot

Oct 08, 2014 at 07:40 PM

The 5-8am limit on fast training is not appropriate for prospect park.

Jules

Oct 08, 2014 at 07:58 PM

eragot said:

The 5-8am limit on fast training is not appropriate for prospect park.

We all agree. Right now the thinking is to cut & paste, minus the #5 (hourly limits)

eragot

Oct 08, 2014 at 08:06 PM

Cool. Reasonable then.

mugwump

Oct 09, 2014 at 02:36 AM

Can we nudge the running clubs to create their own park protocols?

For years, I've been frustrated by the way runners take over bike lanes. In CP, the sector going north from 59th to 72nd in particular, this is still a problem, even with the re-drawn lines.

Jules

Oct 09, 2014 at 01:45 PM

mugwump said:

Can we nudge the running clubs to create their own park protocols?

For years, I've been frustrated by the way runners take over bike lanes. In CP, the sector going north from 59th to 72nd in particular, this is still a problem, even with the re-drawn lines.

Yes. And reach out to the Tri clubs whose members are a rolling menace.

JohnMalcolmson

Oct 09, 2014 at 06:40 PM

Running club outreach, anyone have a connection to http://www.nyrr.org/?

Running the wrong way down Engineers Gate three abreast in the "fast" bike lane at night, two sets of these doucherers. F-F-F-FFFFF!

dstokes

Oct 09, 2014 at 07:49 PM

I click on nyrr.org and the first thing I see:

Memorial Sloan Kettering's Fred's Team Presents Grete's Great Gallop

I'm afraid it is a lost cause.

mugwump

Oct 09, 2014 at 09:36 PM

JohnMalcolmson said:

Running club outreach, anyone have a connection to http://www.nyrr.org/?

Running the wrong way down Engineers Gate three abreast in the "fast" bike lane at night, two sets of these doucherers. F-F-F-FFFFF!

Several years ago, I was riding with the guy who was then working as the NY Times' ethicist. We came across what appeared to be a school's track practice on the drive. They took over the right lane from about 90th to 94th on the east side.

He yelled at them to get off the road. I asked if it was ethical. He responded that their behavior was unethical and prompted his response.

Come to think of it, where is he these days?

mperlberg

Oct 09, 2014 at 09:46 PM

mugwump said:

JohnMalcolmson said:

Running club outreach, anyone have a connection to http://www.nyrr.org/?

Running the wrong way down Engineers Gate three abreast in the "fast" bike lane at night, two sets of these doucherers. F-F-F-FFFFF!

Several years ago, I was riding with the guy who was then working as the NY Times' ethicist. We came across what appeared to be a school's track practice on the drive. They took over the right lane from about 90th to 94th on the east side.

He yelled at them to get off the road. I asked if it was ethical. He responded that their behavior was unethical and prompted his response.

Come to think of it, where is he these days?

You knew the ethicist????

neilx

Oct 09, 2014 at 10:30 PM

@mugwump.... Are you referring to Randy Cohen? Assuming, yes. Coincidentally, Marci (my wife) met him at a party once a bunch of years ago and called me on the phone. (I was home. Hmmm.) She told me she was standing with The Ethicist ("Randy") and that she had been chatting with him and that he was a cyclist. She asked me if I had an ethical question that I wanted to ask him. She put him on the line and I asked: Would it be ethical for me to dope just to be able to stay with the pack? What if i knew I'd never be on the podium, I'd never be in the top 10, and I'd never be able to help a teammate, but I just wanted to feel "part of it." I wouldn't really be depriving anyone else of anything. I'd just feel a little "better" about myself. I guess it was a bit like a forerunner of the David Anthony excuse, i.e., that he was doping just to feel "relevant." (This was all 100% theoretical on my part, mind you.) The Ethicist's response: Doping would be fine under those circumstances. In his defense he was a little tipsy and I think he may have been flirting with Marci. Wait a minute...that doesn't seem ethical, does it?

Dan Reiners

Oct 09, 2014 at 11:59 PM

@neilx

So it sounds like he took his job seriously, always trying to make sure he flirted with the line just so he knew where it was.

Jules

Oct 10, 2014 at 12:57 AM

I wanted to elaborate on the Board's decision to endorse the Central Park Cycling Protocol as a couple of people have asked in private about it.

In the wake of the tragic CP accident which involved a CRCA member, and given that both CRCA and NYCC have jointly published this guideline, we (the Kissena Board) decided that endorsing this policy and joining our fellow NYC racers and organized riders was a small positive step we could take, and superior to an otherwise noticeable silence on the matter.

I think it's safe to say everyone in the club knows how they should behave in the park and on the roads - as Eloy pointed out - it's dead simple - the challenge is showing the world that we take safety seriously and are not the blood thirsty assassins the NYPost (and others) make us out to be.

This is not a binding legal contract and at the end of the day Common Sense should prevail. If it's 40 degrees and raining the "density" of traffic in the park will allow for different behavior than high noon on a holiday weekend.

Obviously the timing provisions are not ideal, but as an overall guideline and we all believed it was an earnest attempt to join with the other largest local clubs in expressing our willingness to publish guidelines and ask our members to abide by them.

As a middle ground between silence and engaging the overwhelming tide of anti-bike rage this seemed (and still does) like a reasonable step to take.

Lastly, if we want to have a voice at the table when people speak "for" cyclists we do need to participate and be willing to compromise somewhat.

The upside is that we've been asked to take the lead on drafting a Prospect equivalent - and we anticipate both NYCC and CRCA putting their weight behind it.

I earnestly hope that in 2015 we can make adjustments so that there is a dedicated Board Position of "Public Relations" to stay abreast of things like this, and work throughout the year to craft a consistent and effective voice for us that fairly represents the interests of competitive cyclists as well as by staying close with other organizations like TA so that we don't find ourselves in the uncomfortable position of discovering after the fact that our voices as competitive and recreational cyclists are not united.

Phil Maronilla

Oct 10, 2014 at 02:56 AM

Is it OK to "educate" erring cyclists in central park, prospect and on the road in general? I sometimes feel like a vigilante out to correct people when they're out doing the wrong things.

Jules

Oct 10, 2014 at 03:00 AM

"Education" is always your descision. Everyone has at least one story of education gone horribly right and horribly wrong.

The weekend after the CP accident I talked to a guy rollerading backwards with headphones on - he hadn't heard the story and was genuinely grateful for the heads up. Fair to say that's a rarity

Bruce van-Schalkwyk

Oct 10, 2014 at 10:25 PM

NYPD had a Central Park Precinct safety meeting. Link and, while it's brief, pasting a couple of things of note from it: No fast riding in the afternoon, educating runners about running into bikes, and statistics on cyclists crashing and getting tickets.

http://www.streetsblog.org/2014/10/09/sanity-prevails-as-advocates-and-officials-discuss-central-park-safety-issues/#disqus_thread

at least in the short term, cyclists’ use of the park will continue as it has before, albeit with a continuation of the increased level of enforcement already seen for most of 2014.

Inspector Corey started with some statistics: Year to date, there have been 168 crashes involving cyclists in the park, with six involving motor vehicles, 98 involving cyclists crashing on their own, 27 involving two or more cyclists, and 37 involving pedestrians. In addition with the two recent pedestrian fatalities, she mentioned three cases involving pedestrian skull fractures, including one which occurred during the early morning hours when training bicyclists are supposed to use the park loop.

Corey also reported nearly 700 moving violations and 100 criminal citations issued to cyclists year-to-date — a nearly six-fold increase over the first nine months of 2013.

For their part, the cycling and other advocacy organizations present at the meeting condemned training rides and other “fast cycling” during the afternoon and evening when the recent fatalities occurred. It was noted that some bike/ped crashes involved runners who unexpectedly turned into the cycling lane, and that education with runners and pedestrians should be a continued priority.

Jules

Oct 10, 2014 at 11:53 PM

Thanks Bruce. Both parks seem to agree that they've been ticketing cyclists and pedestrians at hugely increased rates from past years.

mperlberg

Oct 11, 2014 at 10:40 AM

Jules said:

Thanks Bruce. Both parks seem to agree that they've been ticketing cyclists and pedestrians at hugely increased rates from past years.

I'd like to see the data on that. I bet it's 699 citations for cyclists, 1 for a pedestrian.

Jules

Oct 11, 2014 at 12:51 PM

^ill ask at the next comcom meeting.

Jules

Oct 22, 2014 at 12:57 AM

Hey Gang,

Just back from the longest ever "ComCom" meeting where new President Sue Donaghue was introduced.

Great deal of material was covered, including the "illegal dumping of domestic waterfowl" but I'll stick to the issues that concern us the most, in no particular order:

Police: Unofficially from the 78th we hear 8/10 tickets (summonses) issued were to pedestrians, but the offenses cover a large range of activities from fires under trees to disorderly conduct. Overall this summer had fewer incidents than last. Everyone asked for specifics, hopefully forthcoming at the next meeting
The skating rink: opens THIS SATURDAY as does the parking lot. The lot will be open 6am-11pm and we should expect a bit of chaos as people figure it out. Police will be onsite for opening day.
Road Sharing Task Force: the re-painting has been viewed as a big improvement by everyone (Central Park copied it) and the Task Force is being reconstituted - we will be a part of it. No firm timelines on it, nor agenda other than the obvious of improved safety for all park users.
Pedestrian and Bike Safety: some government agency has approved 70mm (million) dollars for NY State pedestrian and cyclist safety infrastructure improvements. 2.5 will go towards Atlantic Ave, another 2.5 towards 4th Ave. Apparently the official announcements are tomorrow. No word on the remaining 65mm.
Popup Lakes: work is underway to repair them - time should be weeks not months to completion.

Everyone there was asked to give a brief presentation on their "group" so I kept our summary simple: 150 members, 14 races per year, between 2 and 3 thousand participants total. Each race has 26 marshals, plus 3-4 USAC race officials and 6 moto/follow pacers.

I stressed that our chief concern was safety for all the park users and that the recent accident in Central Park has left us all heartbroken for all those involved. I talked briefly about the Central Park cycling protocol and how we were drafting a similar doc for Prospect Park but without specifics.

Overall a positive meeting. Sue is the third "head" of the park to take office in my short tenure as Club President.

Questions, comments concerns - y'all know where to find me

Cheers,

Jules