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In Print: Articles of Interest

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neilx
Oct 09, 2013 at 07:45 PM
Jules said:
@Ryan why aren't you tearing this up?
:)
The women's winner has one of my favorite names in cycling: "Silke (sometimes pronounced "silky") Wunderwald."  (FWIW, she was Kenda teammate of ex-Kissena President Stacey Jensen for a couple of years.)  Obviously, she's a tough rider (despite, or perhaps because of, the silky name) to win that race--even moreso at the age of 42.  (I know... I know... Horner's almost that "old" and Jens is in his 70's or something.)
mugwump
Oct 09, 2013 at 11:14 PM
Jules said:
@Ryan why aren't you tearing this up?

:)

Jules, last I checked, the entry fee was something like $400.  That's two stage races for doing a single 7.5mile climb.  

That written, I've done it twice.  My fee was comped though.
Jules
Oct 10, 2013 at 07:28 PM
@Wump's latest (don't know why he's too bashful to link it himself, but that's what teammates are for, right?)

http://redkiteprayer.com/2013/10/2013-interbike-dials-are-the-new-black/
mugwump
Oct 11, 2013 at 02:25 AM
Jules said:
@Wump's latest (don't know why he's too bashful to link it himself, but that's what teammates are for, right?)

If you're going to do that, tweet it as well.

#thanksforbeingonthejob
Myles
Oct 11, 2013 at 03:15 AM
I thought hash tags were the new black. Im confused
On Oct 10, 2013 10:25 PM, "mugwump" <
Jules
Oct 11, 2013 at 01:55 PM
I like this guy...

http://velonews.competitor.com/2013/10/news/tim-johnson-qa-curiously-caught-between-soul-rider-and-wattage-dork_305465
Brendan Rigby
Oct 11, 2013 at 03:48 PM
dog runs in front of you because its owner called it from the side of the road?  you can sue!  http://www.courts.state.ny.us/reporter/3dseries/2013/2013_06442.htm
Mark Clifford
Oct 12, 2013 at 11:44 AM
i just finished reading the book domestique by charly wegelius.  imo, a great read.  he provides a somewhat unique insight into the grit and hardships of pro cycling and has some interesting things to say about certain pros (... as i always suspected, cuddles is a dick). 



David Yang
Oct 13, 2013 at 01:05 AM
@Clifford - thanks for the .co.uk link (friggin brits...)

http://www.amazon.com/Domestique-Real-life-Downs-Tour-ebook/dp/B00CP5UBQG/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1381626200&sr=8-1&keywords=domestique
Marc Bertucco
Oct 14, 2013 at 10:18 AM

What a frigg'n baby. It's called bike racing. Tactics. Get used to it.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/questions-raised-over-belkins-tactics-for-paris-tours

"There will be consequences..."

ooooh, I'm scared. PUH-LEASE.
Marc Bertucco
Oct 14, 2013 at 10:27 AM

Most interesting Euro-cross course ever?

https://player.vimeo.com/video/76809304

eragot
Oct 14, 2013 at 10:44 AM

to quote Owens from another thread: "OMG OMG OMG."

wow, that looks fun...

David Yang
Oct 14, 2013 at 03:50 PM
Marc Bertucco said:

What a frigg'n baby. It's called bike racing. Tactics. Get used to it.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/questions-raised-over-belkins-tactics-for-paris-tours

"There will be consequences..."

ooooh, I'm scared. PUH-LEASE.
Ha I watched it last night and thought "that dude is doing a hell of a job blocking".

It was a fun race to watch.  And poor Tyler, always in contention, but never first.
David Yang
Oct 14, 2013 at 03:52 PM
WSJ article about the Red Hook Crit, Joshua Hartman, and Trimble...

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702303376904579133644031453558.html


David Yang
Oct 14, 2013 at 03:59 PM
A response from Trimble on gothamist where he refers to the Crystal City crash as an example of a USAC sanctioned race that had a tragic accident:

http://gothamist.com/2013/10/14/cyclist_shatters_jaw_in_red_hook_ra.php

The accident involving Josh Hartman was a truly a terrible incident. The injury that occurred was serious and his recovery has been in our thoughts at all times since it happened.

We are studying our operation closely to identify each area where safety can be improved. This includes course design, barrier and hay bale placement, positioning of medical staff, and athlete communication. There is not one specific change we can make but instead a continuous evolution of improvements that will help minimize the risk of serious injury.

The overall safety of the race is our number one priority and something we take extremely seriously. This article does not cover the high level of safety procedures and medical support we had in place which far exceed any other race in New York City. The ambulance and medical director responded to the incident within seconds and Josh received a world class care immediately. In addition to the medical team the race has extensive course infrastructure with crash barriers, hay bales, and trained course marshals at every corner.

The article does asks some interesting questions but there are so many inaccuracies and no real point to it except to try and create an imaginary safety divide between "unsanctioned" and "sanctioned" racing. To imply that USA Cycling offers safety oversight that prevents injuries or offers enough insurance to compensate for a serious injury is laughable at best. A "sanctioned" race from that same day had a serious crash where the race promoter actually ran the course back on itself.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GL-5LkEQL1Y

The debate over the Red Hook Criterium race format is valid but the quote from Steve Johnson proves that he does not understand how the athletes actually ride their bikes through the corners. Track bikes with fixed wheels are technically challenging and riders must understand how to modulate their speed but the format is proven (In the race's six year history we have had only one serious injury). The Red Hook Criterium is a fast and technical event with an ever increasing profile and the competitors understand what they are getting involved in. As with any action sport athletes fundamentally have to assume the risks of competition (The statement that Josh did not sign a waiver is inaccurate).

I prefer not to discuss the situation regarding the medical bills because there are many moving parts and fundraising efforts happening simultaneously. The amount of our donation quoted is inaccurate but we prefer to keep these efforts between us and Josh's family.

Bike racing is inherently dangerous. Ever since bicycle racing was invented there have been crashes and injuries and as a race promoter this is a reality that I must face at all times. We will continue pushing hard to constantly improve the safety of the event and we will continue to communicate the risks to the athletes who register to compete.


Phil Maronilla
Oct 14, 2013 at 07:24 PM
Racing bikes with no insurance (your own) is scarier than actually racing bikes.  The ambulance ride alone is several hundred dollars.
Brendan Rigby
Oct 14, 2013 at 07:58 PM
bike racing is dangerous.  that's why we trust race directors to minimize risk through intelligent course design and adequate insurance.  trimble's comments on how track bikes handle and the previous years without injury ignore the primary allegation: this year, he designed a dangerous course.  how many riders finished the race again?  wasn't it absurdly low?  of course, you can't expect him to say much in the shadow of a lawsuit.  but the whole "bike racing is dangerous" line of thinking is misleading because you don't accept all imaginable risks when you race.  you trust the director to eliminate some.
Jules
Oct 14, 2013 at 08:16 PM
Trimble has his work cut out for him if he thinks his race attendees are going to continue to support his attacks on USAC.  I'd be shocked if more than 5% of his racers *don't* have USAC licenses.  *Lots* of people got injured in his race; Joshua was just the most visible/terrible instance.  Volbach broke his collarbone and WAS ALLOWED TO CONTINUE RACING for crying out loud.

Yeah, he's got the racers welfare at the top his priorities... when it comes time to TYPE in his browser.
alyoshas
Oct 14, 2013 at 09:19 PM
Mark Clifford said:
i just finished reading the book domestique by charly wegelius.  imo, a great read.  he provides a somewhat unique insight into the grit and hardships of pro cycling and has some interesting things to say about certain pros (... as i always suspected, cuddles is a dick). 






this is a link if you want to receive for free in the US: (I used to order a lot of my textbooks from this website)


Myles
Oct 14, 2013 at 09:47 PM
Here is the thing however. Usa cycling pretty much sucks from the promoters
standpoint you can say they provide insurance coverage etcetera etcetera
etcetera but the truth is your coverage isn't so great and it cost more
than it would be from a third party vendor. Regarding safety at usa
cycling events the officials Marshalls etcetera pretty much assume the
promoter has done their job and designed a safe course. I've had a referee
walked the entire supercross course once in the last 6 years and even that
was at my insistence.

Regarding jules thought that this race course was unsafe. Let's be frank
here the racecourse is not the problem. The problem is that you're racing
in the dark on a track bike with no fucking brakes. I could ride around
the course with my eyes closed all day long and not hurt myself. Would i
race on a track bike in the dark? Fuck no.

The other issue at least to my perception is the free for all seating
format. To me that is an accident waiting to happen. And events like this
should be Invitational only: and there in lies the rub. The kid got hurt
in a qualifying event with likely four times as many people in the actual
race with little or no actual ability trying to do their best Lance
Armstrong imitation. Disaster was practically assured from the moment that
started.

Regarding the comments made implying that sanctioned races have safer
courses that is simply not true. On average far more people are injured or
killed in sanctioned events.

Regarding the comment about letting a ridee who ended up with a broken
collarbone continue. It is a very sticky situation but that happens in
sanctioned event as well. Typically they don't have the right to remove
you from the race unless there's a loss of consciousness for you pose a
threat to another person for yourself do to your condition. People do it
all the time.

To be fair I think my comment above show that at best I think the event in
its current format is much like watching 3 monkeys trying to f#/k a
football you just know there is no way it is going to go smoothly.

But having been frequently exposed to USA Cycling stupidity from the
promoter standpoint I can tell you they're not all they're cracked up to
be. The bottom line here is use your head try not to do dumb things on your
bike and ride within your limits
On Oct 14, 2013 4:16 PM, "Jules"
Jules
Oct 14, 2013 at 10:35 PM
Myles said:
at best I think the event in its current format is much like watching 3 monkeys trying to f#/k a football you just know there is no way it is going to go smoothly. 
That one is going in the book of phrases...


Myles
Oct 14, 2013 at 10:49 PM
Yup
On Oct 14, 2013 6:35 PM, "Jules"
Jules
Oct 15, 2013 at 12:55 AM
But in all seriousness; running the course at night is the promoters choice, not happenstance... As are all the other conditions that make this race stupid dangerous. The entire PREMISE of this race is "more danger, more excitement, more extreme" The argument isn't that USAC races are inherently safer; the argument is that having a governing body means that there is some kind of framework (certification, oversight, sanctions, etc) for incentivizing the right behaviors.
Myles
Oct 15, 2013 at 01:04 AM
But there isnt. Save for brakes this is just like athens. Or iron city or
gasworks. Or night weasels. Here's the thing.

Its not a surprise. You could pre ride weeks in advance. Like super
chicken says 'you knew the job was dangerous when you took it"
On Oct 14, 2013 8:55 PM, "Jules"
Myles
Oct 15, 2013 at 10:39 AM
see, there is absolutely no incentive from usac for ...incentivizing the right behaviours. here's what you don't get.

promoters are largely motivated by two things. cash. and laziness. (why avd has no results posted. lazy n cheap). usac used to give you a refund for results. then they took it away. I guess they figured "who wouldn't turn in results"... why leave money on the table. oops.

so back to the two things. cash. where does cash come from? entries. so redhook exploded in pre reg this year with their dumb seeding format. allowing the everyman idiots of new york to believe that they too are. ....who the fuck knows...insert professional darkness bike racer here.

you'd have to be a moron to sign up not thinking this was dangerousER than a regular cycling event. trimble didnt mis represent the product here at all. and the kid in question signed up voluntarily. THERES the real issue. kid. Castaldi will have a good time with that. usac is just as bad fyi. we havent had photographs on licenses since uspro.

usac isnt useful. there is practically no framework for what you describe. their very nature of their business practices encourage unsanctioned events bc they force promoters into purchasing over priced under powered insurance. matt mcgregor raced supercross teice one year on a fixie cross bike. until he flatted and a pit judge figured it out. thats a uci event yhe highest regulated event in this country.

would a usac event have permitted it with no brakes? no.
woild they have permitted fixed gear non velodrome mass start racing? probably not .

would a usac ref or promoter have determined some jackass kid was racing cp on a track bike? fuck no.

say avd does a park race and overnight they remove the downhill on 110 and replace it with a 6 foot deep pit. full of broken glass. but with a 2 foot wide shoulder to ride on.
race starts people get fd up everyones screwed on that one. you expected one thing but got another.

say he permits it saying in the flyer construction you must ride on the lawn down from 110. and of course some charged up hedge douche seeking maximum points for whatever falls into the pit. well..you knew it was there. and still signed up. trimble didnt under deliver on his product relative to what was advertised. your own paragraph quoting "more danger"(sic) demonstrates that rather nicely.


I suspect the age of the contestant will come into play quite heavily. the nature of the race? please. in a voluntary exercise id say it's practically irrelevant. there were pre ride videos, pre ride warm ups, and many other chances to withdraw of your own volition. will h3 get sued? absolutely. will he win? probably not. will it fuck up future efforts for groups like us to get permits? likely. but the entire point is YOU are the best determinant of your own personal safety. not some idiot ref, promoter, etc.
Jules
Oct 15, 2013 at 12:52 PM
Myles, still waiting for the point behind "things I don't get" above.  I never intimated that people got other than what the signed up for, or that there were surprises (and based on our lengthy budget talks re: supercross I think I'm pretty clear on the revenue model)

You have a litany of grievances against USAC but it's the governing body of the sport - it doesn't really matter who is there or what epithets you fling at them the alternative is a sport without a set of consistent rules, and that is a passtime, not a sport.

Race promoters do stupid stuff all the time; like letting fields continue to race when it isn't safe; Trimble doesn't have a monopoly on stupid.

When an independent promoter does stupid things, the only things to motivate him/her are the law and market forces.  Based on the Tough Mudder stuff, that doesn't seem very effective.

The alternative is a league with rules that are enforced as additional inventive; I didn't say "sufficient" incentive, just additional.

As to the "zero incentive from USAC" to run a safe race... sounds like it's time for some extra coffee :)
Myles
Oct 15, 2013 at 01:19 PM
I don't use coffee it makes me all crazy like.

Myles
Oct 15, 2013 at 01:30 PM
Good catch.  So things you don't get.  Promoters motivated by cash and or laziness.  (See above for examples). 

USAC used to motivate promoters financially to provide complete results within 10 days of races by offering them a 50cent discont per rider off their insurance charges.  Worked great. (And would make ragot/my collective lives SO much easier)  It's gone results are a shit show.

Cash is also promoters motivation.  It's clear from a cursory inspection taht trimble made some serious money at this event.  By allowing in idiots with effectively no skill to buy a "piece of the dream" and attempt to compete with Neil Bezdek and co through what was essentially  gladitorial combat on wheels.

The result was a young man was injured badly.  Likely as a result of his own in abilty to compete/ride at a high level.  (Cue all of our previous conversations about hedge fund douches not learning how to ride ruining the sport yadda yadda yadda)  Would a governing body help? 

I think this is the point I was trying to make.  No.  While you seem to imply that unsanctioned events are potentially unsafe, have you actually read your USAC waiver? Specifically paragraph 2. 

Anyway. I continue.  USAC events have the potential to be safer but the rules are never enforced. 
Also, one could likely argue that RHC has a set of rules, and a governing body ,effectively Trimble.  You have to have a track bike, you have to sign a waiver, you have to qualify, etc etc etc.  Sounds like rules to me, consistent across three continents, I guess it's a sport now. 

The point I guess I'm really trying to make.  I don't feel promoters should be responsible for rider stupidity.  I have a hard enough time being responsible enough for my stupidity.  I'm not adopting everyone else's too.  Not a wining scenario that.  Not to mention essentially impossible to predict, and enforce.  The end result would be... no more bike races.   Further thoughts are likewise.. murky. 

One could argue that a novice rider should have the common sense to not race a bicycle around a potentially dangerous course with no brakes as fast as he or she can in a large group of people.

One could argue that an organizing body should not provide the option for a novice rider to race a bicycle around a potentially dangerous course with no brakes as fast as he or she can in a large group of people. 

but that would be down right un american now wouldn't it.

Jules
Oct 15, 2013 at 02:02 PM
Myles said:

The point I guess I'm really trying to make.  I don't feel promoters should be responsible for rider stupidity.  I have a hard enough time being responsible enough for my stupidity.  I'm not adopting everyone else's too.  Not a wining scenario that.  Not to mention essentially impossible to predict, and enforce.  The end result would be... no more bike races.   Further thoughts are likewise.. murky. 
Now THIS is an interesting point...

Two things though: 

ONE: yes, it IS un-American to restrict people's access to the consequences of their own stupidity

TWO:  isn't the very next step the experienced racers immediately lobbying fto keep the rookies out of their fields so they can get on with the racing....

My summary of this whole Red Hook-gate silliness is that it falls into the same category of event as Tough Mudder, Color Run, or even the Raid Gauloises that are "experiential entertainment" and not really "sports" (although I'm going to need a lot more than coffee to come to a succinct definition of "sport") and as such, caveat emptor.

I think the cycling community is up in arms because a) Trimble does promote a USAC event from time to time (or has) and b) it LOOKS like a bike race, so people feel it's a reflection on their beloved sport.

One last thing, although Myles makes excellent CLAIM to being lazy, I submit it's pretty much an IMPOSSIBILITY for someone to put on a UCI cross race singlehandedly (or even with help) year after year and lay claim to being lazy.  MR may be many things to many people, but lazy ain't one of them.  Sorry mate.

Footnote: worse has happened at the Tough Mudder than Joshua.
Wes Tillman
Oct 15, 2013 at 02:12 PM
Myles said:

I think this is the point I was trying to make.  No.  While you seem to imply that unsanctioned events are potentially unsafe, have you actually read your USAC waiver? Specifically paragraph 2. 


For the lazy/ curious. I've never actually read this before.

I ACKNOWLEDGE THAT CYCLING IS AN INHERENTLY
DANGEROUS SPORT AND FULLY REALIZE THE DANGERS OF
PARTICIPATING IN THIS EVENT, whether as a rider, official,
coach, mechanic, volunteer, spectator, or otherwise, and FULLY
ASSUME THE RISKS ASSOCIATED WITH SUCH
PARTICIPATION INCLUDING, by way of example, and not
limitation: dangers associated with man-made and natural jumps;
the dangers of collision with pedestrians, vehicles, other riders, and
fixed or moving objects; the dangers arising from surface hazards,
including pot holes, equipment failure, inadequate safety equipment,
use of equipment or materials provided by the event organizer and
others, THE RELEASEES' OWN NEGLIGENCE, the negligence of
others and weather conditions; and the possibility of serious
physical and/or mental trauma or injury, or death associated with the
event. For myself, my heirs, executors, administrators, legal
representatives, assignees, and successors in interest (collectively
"Successors") I HEREBY WAIVE, RELEASE, DISCHARGE, HOLD
HARMLESS, AND PROMISE TO INDEMNIFY AND NOT TO SUE
the Releasees and all sponsors, organizers and promoting
organizations, property owners, law enforcement agencies, public
entities, special districts and properties that are in any manner
connected with this event, and their respective agents, officials, and
employees through or by which the event will be held, (the foregoing
are also collectively deemed to be Releasees), FROM ANY AND
ALL RIGHTS AND CLAIMS INCLUDING CLAIMS ARISING FROM
THE RELEASEES' OWN NEGLIGENCE TO THE MAXIMUM
EXTENT PERMITTED BY LAW, which I have or which may
hereafter accrue to me and from any and all damages which may be
sustained by me directly or indirectly in connection with, or arising
out of, my participation in or association with the event, or travel to
or return from the event. I agree it is my sole responsibility to be
familiar with the event course and agenda, the Releasees' rules, and
any special regulations for the event and agree to comply with all
such rules and regulations. I understand and agree that situations
may arise during the event which may be beyond the control of the
Releasees, and I must continually ride and otherwise participate so
as to neither endanger myself nor others. I accept responsibility for
the condition and adequacy of my equipment, any equipment
provided for my use, and my conduct in connection with this event. I
will wear a helmet which satisfies the requirements of the
Releasees' Racing Rules or Regulations and that can protect
against serious head injury, and assume all responsibility and
liability for the selection of such a helmet and any modifications or
attachments made thereto. I have no physical or medical condition
which would endanger myself or others if I participate in this event. I
understand and agree that the UCI Anti-Doping Rules and U.S.
Anti-Doping Agency (USADA) Protocol apply to me and that it is my
responsibility to comply with those rules. I agree to submit to drug
testing and understand that the use of methods or substances
prohibited by the applicable anti-doping rules would make me
subject to penalties including, but not limited to, disqualification and
suspension. If it is determined that I may have committed a doping
violation, I agree to submit to the results management authority and
processes of USADA, including arbitration under the USADA
Protocol, or to the results management authority